Petrol 6 cylinder engine type

[johnydep]

With Ford being the only manufacturer using a cast iron block for their 6's and requiring a weight reduction for the Territory, I figure they may be up for another major engine mod soon, or another engine.

I'd prefer the same six with an alloy block, I love straight sixes & V8's, but I wouldn't want to own a V6 because of all the extra mechanical complexities required to try & smooth them out. Look at the new Holden V6; they spent a fortune on it and all the motor writers comment on its harsh sound & feel.
http://www.answers.com/topic/straight-engine

A straight six is also a great selling point for Ford.

So let’s hear what you all reckon.

[neb]

yeah i think they should go straight 6 with an alloy block that would be good

[Raptor]

Next petrol six should be an alloy I6 for sure.

Though the next Territory engine should be the turbo version of the current engine or an INLINE diesel (maybe a 5 cylinder).

[james]

Six in a row is the go !!!!

kep the I6 and attach a snail or two , too it.

and have some oil burners in the mix as well

[gz1]

Why the bias against V6's ? myself I would much rather have a V6 than a straight 6 given all else is equal, simply because it's shorter and this allows easier (maybe better?) weight distribution. A V6 can sit behind the front axle. As far as the engine technology goes I can't see why a straight 6 would be any better than a V. Can you imagine a straight 8? would you like that in a car?
If I'm off the mark here can someone provide some technical information/pointers as to why. Curious minds need to know :confused:

[Raptor]

....

If I'm off the mark here can someone provide some technical information/pointers as to why. Curious minds need to know :confused:

gz1, start your education here; http://www.ukcar.com/sframe.htm?/features/tech/engine.htm

This is from the 'smoothness' section;

Inline-6 is not the only configuration that can deliver near perfect refinement, but it is the most compact one amongst them. All boxer engines are perfectly balanced, but they are too wide and require duplicate of blocks, heads and valve gears. V12 engines also achieve perfect balance, but obviously out of the reach of most mass production cars.

Automotive engineers knew that long ago, that’s why you can see most of the best classic engines were inline-6.....

V6's only excuse for existing is that of packaging and RWD/FWD compatibility.

INLINE 6's rule :dance:

[johnydep]

Why the bias against V6's ? myself I would much rather have a V6 than a straight 6 given all else is equal, simply because it's shorter and this allows easier (maybe better?) weight distribution. A V6 can sit behind the front axle. As far as the engine technology goes I can't see why a straight 6 would be any better than a V. Can you imagine a straight 8? would you like that in a car?
If I'm off the mark here can someone provide some technical information/pointers as to why. Curious minds need to know :confused:

Raptor has given you a good start.

Here is some more info;

http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/jk/at_010424.htm
The primary objectives for the new engine included: offer the performance of a V8 with the economy of a 6-cylinder, make the engine smooth and quiet, and use technology to reduce emissions. When evaluating engine possibilities, the inline 6-cylinder design became the number one choice.
…..Sutter described the inherent smoothness of an inline 6-cylinder design. It has both primary and secondary balance. Primary balance is when the crankshaft counterweights offset the weight of the piston and rod. Secondary balance is when the movement of one piston balances the movement of another. V6's have a secondary imbalance that causes engine vibration. Adding a counter balance shaft can reduce this imbalance, but that adds weight and complexity. The inline design was a good choice……….

http://www.bmwworld.com/engines/6cyl.htm
Compared with other engine designs, the straight-six power unit offers the optimum configuration for a six-cylinder.

The absence of free mass forces and momentum due to the perfect inner balance of this type of engine makes the configuration unbeatable.
The straight-six engine does not require balance shafts and elaborate engine mounts to overcome vibrations inherent in other designs, like the V-6.
No unwanted symptoms have to be eliminated, since the straight-six engine is perfect from the ground up.

http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=gegjn9fk67g03?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Straight-6&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc03a
As far as passenger vehicles are concerned, inline six engines might be making a comeback in some larger vehicle types such as trucks and SUVs.


As for V8’s, it also has something to do with balance. I can’t remember all of the info I learnt when I was a V8 freak, but part of it has to do with having an even number of pistons on each bank & the overlap of the power strokes.
I think a good designed six is smoother than a V8

http://www.answers.com/V8
The most-common Vee angle for a V8 by far is 90°. This configuration produces a wide, low engine with optimal firing and vibration characteristics. Since many V6 engines are derived from V8 designs, they often use the 90° angle as well.

[ricthewheelie]

As for V8’s, it also has something to do with balance.
http://www.answers.com/V8
It's longitudanal balance i.e rocks front to rear although not much.

I'd still like to see the 6 as inline cast iron as it has great strength advantages over alloy. Maybe the can utilise the Compacted graphite iron that the jag's are going to use.
To quote

Compacted graphite iron, or CGI, has a different molecular structure that makes it stronger, stiffer and more resistant to metal fatigue than conventional gray-iron castings. Those are excellent properties for engine blocks and cylinder heads, especially for new diesels operating at higher internal pressures to burn fuel more completely and meet stricter emissions rules.
Designers can reduce engine weight and bulk because the higher strength of CGI allows for thinner walls between cylinders. CGI has 80 percent more tensile strength, 40 percent more stiffness and double the fatigue strength of regular cast iron.

[XBeast]

Yep CG-iron ,for people who don`t know ,it`s the same materal as what is used to make the exhust manifolds on 6`s and the thought was tossed around years ago,would be good to never reboare and hone a block and just change rings ;) but is a pain in the but to make right!!!!!!,

[Bossxr8]

The straight 6 is going to stay cast iron for a while yet, and why not. I hear everyone say it will be a huge weight reduction but in reality the difference between an iron and alloy block is about 15kg. The extra cost and lower durability of alloy mean its not really worth doing as I think Ford would be better off losing weight elsewhere. Stuff like magnesium seat frames and dash support members would be a better way to spend money as those parts don't require the level of durability an engine block does, although magnesium alloy is stronger than steel anyway, but again cost would be the deciding factor.

[Walkinshaw]

the massive cost in retooling to go cast==>alloy would send most people insane. It would be fantastic to see an all alloy 6, an alloy boss would also be fantatsic to get the fat bastards to loose some weight.

[The MaDDeSTMaN]

Why the bias against V6's ? myself I would much rather have a V6 than a straight 6 given all else is equal, simply because it's shorter and this allows easier (maybe better?) weight distribution. A V6 can sit behind the front axle. As far as the engine technology goes I can't see why a straight 6 would be any better than a V. Can you imagine a straight 8? would you like that in a car?
If I'm off the mark here can someone provide some technical information/pointers as to why. Curious minds need to know :confused:
Perhaps you should ask the car manufacturers why they continue to use inline 6's? There are many reasons, but instead of listing them, I'll just point out some of the manufacturers who continue to use I6's and some notable examples of I6 engines:
Ford: Falcon
Toyota: Supra
Nissan: Skyline
BMW

...And that is not a complete list. Granted, they're all quite different in a lot of ways, but they all share one basic fact, 6 cylinders, all arranged in one row.

[Bossxr8]

Perhaps you should ask the car manufacturers why they continue to use inline 6's? There are many reasons, but instead of listing them, I'll just point out some of the manufacturers who continue to use I6's and some notable examples of I6 engines:
Ford: Falcon
Toyota: Supra
Nissan: Skyline
BMW

...And that is not a complete list. Granted, they're all quite different in a lot of ways, but they all share one basic fact, 6 cylinders, all arranged in one row.
The only problem with that is both the Supra and Skyline are now out of production, and the new Skyline uses a V6, but Lexus uses a straight 6 in the IS200/300.

[philby]

The bottom line is this - V6 - The badge looks good - marketing tool "Hey man I've got a V6"!!!

I've driven motorbikes my whole life as far as smooth power delivery, excellent throttle responce, loving rev's - go the inline 6!!! (in my case I4 - but you know what I mean). Rode plenty of V4's, opinion - vibrate, hate rev's (try smashing a V4 down 3 gears going into a corner - watch that back wheel skip!!)

But as far as marketing is converned - I6 - doesn't look the same!!!

So for my 2 cents - yes I think an I6 would be a good idea, run a tad higher in rev's - may lose some low down grunt but gearing can fix this but overall worth a look.

[Mechan1k]

Look at BMW (also shown in an above post) ... you don't see them using a V6 in their cars ... they have always stuck with an I6 engine ... look at the M3 .. very smooth ... and also very powerful for mid-capacity I6.

V6 was used as it was a shorter motor and could be used in a more compact area.

[johnydep]

Have a read of the great accolade the Barra got.
http://motormouth.com.au/myvehicle/carreview.aspx?article=ford03

It's official: the BA Falcon's straight six turbo has won the ultimate accolade from the international Ford hierarchy.

"The straight six engine, with its makeover of cylinder head, has solved some performance and economy issues mainly performance but most of all it has lovely character . . . and the turbocharged version is just the icing on the cake," Richard Parry-Jones, Ford's worldwide product and development guru, says on a visit to Australia.

"The inherent noise quality of a nicely tuned straight six has its own appeal, like a classic V8.

"It's one of those classic engine architectural combinations that makes a sound that's unique."

[Mechan1k]

I read in Wheels magazine and also one of the 4WD magazines is that the Territory is smoother than the Falcon ... and has a different sound during revving (they said is actually sounded better).

Not sure why ... maybe the sound proofing is better and it doesn't sound as "harsh" (not that it is) as the Falcon.

[AussieCJ7]

Plus I6 are great for producing Torque not in the same league as large capcity V8's but litre for litre a I6 will have more torque than a V6

HP is great for magazine adds but torque is what makes an engine in the real world

[paulvdb]

Plus I6 are great for producing Torque not in the same league as large capcity V8's but litre for litre a I6 will have more torque than a V6
????

a 4litre V6 and a 4 litre straight six with the same bore/stroke and same design efficiency should have the same torque - the configuration shouldn't make any difference. To me, smoothness and balance are the only benefits of a straight six. If that means that you don't need balance shafts (which would steal some torque and ultimately power) then sure the V6 will have less torque.

One of Ford's decisions will eventually be around packaging. You need only compare the size/shape of an Alloytec against the Barra engine to see that the Barra is awfully tall and long - not a problem in the Territory but maybe a problem in future Falcons. This is also a problem with regard to Pedestrian safety - new regulations will stipulate that there has to be a certain amount of give in a bonnet before hitting the engine. That's easier to achieve in a V6 vs the Barra.

[Paxton]

I read in an article in Drive about the 2007 Falcon, which was part of an interview with Goeff Polites, which mentioned that they were not going away from the 'Falcon' name plate and the Straight 6 motor. There is no sense going away from the 4.0, especially in its current state, with the dual VCT etc, what would a V6 need to get this technologically advaced? The (you can't call it the Falcon 6 anymore) 4.0 is a better and more technical than the Alloytech engine and IMHO the 4.0 goes better, and harder than the Vacuum cleaner that is the Alloytech. (I think the Ecotech 3.8 sounded better than the 3.6)

[The Taipan]

I prefer the inline for the reasons mentioned above - smoothness, ease of adaptation of a turbo charger, etc... but there are more drawbacks than have been mention previously. The original poster touched on it by stating the advantage of the V6 is that it is shorter and therefore able to be moved closer to the centre, but also the length of the I6 means that it bypasses one of the crumple zones, meaning that in an extreme accident the Falcon/Territory are at a disadvantage. Fortunately for us Ford Oz drivers Ford make their vehicles to a much higher specification of crashworthiness than their competitors and rely much less on the active safety systems (airbags etc...) to save the occupants. This does mean the vehicle is heavier, but the body more rigid and resistant to twisting under loads.

[johnydep]

Well it looks like an alloy straight 6 is the preferred engine.

A few ideas have sounded good, like the use of compacted graphite iron (CGI). On its own this metal gives no weight reduction, it’s the extra strength of the metal that allows for a weight reduction by using;
• Thinner cylinder walls
• Less material.

It also has better thermal conductivity & rigidity (similar to cast iron) than alloy, not too many cast iron heads have problems with warped cylinder heads or blown gaskets.
An ideal engine would be made of a material similar to Cast or CGI with the weight benefits of Alloy.
http://www.thdick.co.uk/ductile.htm
Compacted Graphite irons have mechanical and physical properties between those of grey and ductile irons. The material has higher strength than grey iron and better thermal conductivity than ductile iron.
One major problem with CGI is cost. Not only is the cost of the material higher, the machinery required is totally different to current machinery now used for cast & alloy, that means that none of the present machinery can be modified & reused.
http://www.autofieldguide.com/columns/gary/0102mat.html
For one thing, the machine tool power requirements for CGI are higher—on the order of from 10 to 30%. Appropriate machinery for handling CGI is equipped with large spindle motors, stiff spindles, and rigid fixturing. So it is not just a matter of lowering the speed and increasing the speed. And there is also the need to get production rates higher, so it is necessary to have optimized parameters. Tomlinson notes that no one can simply expect to take an existing block line and then running CGI castings down it. “You have to consider all aspects of the line,” he says.

Because the weight of GGI is similar to Cast Iron but has greater strength, manufacturers are starting to use it extensively for Diesel engine production, I could not find any mention of petrol engines using CGI (not to say that there isn’t).
http://www.dieselnet.com/news/0107ford.html
Ford Motor Company said it has awarded Tupy Fundicoes, an iron foundry of Brazil, and SinterCast of Sweden, the production contract for the compacted graphite iron (CGI) cylinder block of its new V6 diesel engine. The state-of-the-art 2.7 liter V6 engine will be the first ever volume engine (more than 100,000 engines per year) produced with a compacted graphite iron cylinder block. The use of compacted graphite iron has helped Ford to improve the engine performance, size, weight and cost that could not simultaneously be met by traditional engine materials, such as aluminium or alloyed grey

Some reading material;
http://hugin.info/1205/R/976807/143911.pdf
http://www.castingsource.com/tech_art_graphite.asp

[mik]

I have to say i prefer the old reliable cast iron , maybe im old fashioned but i like the resistance to chemicals and a fair amount of abuse that cast is good for ,how many times have you pulled an alloy head off and found water galleries nearly eaten clean thru to the combustion chamber

[new2ford]

I have to say i prefer the old reliable cast iron , maybe im old fashioned but i like the resistance to chemicals and a fair amount of abuse that cast is good for ,how many times have you pulled an alloy head off and found water galleries nearly eaten clean thru to the combustion chamber

Having owned vehicles with the alloy Rover V8 which has been around since the '60s I have never experienced or heard of any such problems with that engine. The weight advantages are terrific - one of the reasons for the Leyland P76's great handling was its 50/50 front/rear weight distribution largely thanks to the light engine. Kingswoods and Falcons at the time had a habit of letting go at the rear end because all the weight was up the front. The alloy V8 also delivered terrific fuel figures - down to 11 litres/100km in the 4.4 litre P76 (which weighed 1.3 tonnes) and as good as 13.5 litres/100 km in my 3.5 litre Range Rover. Equivalent iron V8 cars at the time (and other 4WDs) were getting 20 litres/100 km and worse. My Territory is also rather thirsty by comparison!

So personally I am very convinced of the advantages of an alloy engine.

[johnydep]

I have to say i prefer the old reliable cast iron , maybe im old fashioned but i like the resistance to chemicals and a fair amount of abuse that cast is good for ,how many times have you pulled an alloy head off and found water galleries nearly eaten clean thru to the combustion chamber

There's no going back now, the cylinder heads are alloy & will stay that way.

The quality of the alloy has a lot to do with the corrosion resistance. If a high quality alloy is used, which I think is determined by the amount of magnesium content, corrosion will not be an issue.

The early alloy Falcon alloy heads used poor quality alloy that you could almost see corode in front of you.

CGI sounds like a good compromise between Cast irons strength/durability, and alloys lightness, but I doubt that anyone can get enough weight reduction with it to make it a viable alternative to alloy in petrol configuration. CGI offers that advantage to diesel instead.

[darkfang888]

Why the bias against V6's ? myself I would much rather have a V6 than a straight 6 given all else is equal, simply because it's shorter and this allows easier (maybe better?) weight distribution. A V6 can sit behind the front axle. As far as the engine technology goes I can't see why a straight 6 would be any better than a V. Can you imagine a straight 8? would you like that in a car?
If I'm off the mark here can someone provide some technical information/pointers as to why. Curious minds need to know :confused:


One of the reasons why Falcons have always and will always (I gaurantee it) had straight sixes is due to the low-down power & torque that the long stroke can deliver.

I think it should be an all-alloy straight six, and this is quite likely what Ford will do in response to Holden's alloy V6. The only slim chance of Ford having a V6 is if Ford US pushes it, but I'm sure Ford Australia will oppose it (as they should!) using the basis that the sixpack has been used since 1960 and is still one hell of a motor!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Also, if the coon changes to a V-config, many buyers will not buy the vehicle, as it will not be considered a 'true' Falcon, but instead an in-bred cousin of the true car. Much like the Taurus (front wheel drive - puke!).


If you want a common-place V6 engine then go buy a bloody commodore!

[new2ford]

I'm sure Ford Australia will oppose it (as they should!) using the basis that the sixpack has been used since 1960 and is still one hell of a motor!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Also, if the coon changes to a V-config, many buyers will not buy the vehicle, as it will not be considered a 'true' Falcon, but instead an in-bred cousin of the true car.

In case you hadn't noticed darkfang, for a lot of Territory buyers this is their first Ford. Being a 'true Falcon' or not is the last thing on our minds! The best thing for Ford about the Territory is how it distances itself from the company's history of some very dubious products - but I wouldn't labour that point in front of a Ford fan! For me, the positives of the Territory were obvious and overwhelming but the only thing that caused me to pause for a moment was that donk that ultimately dates back several decades - an impression reinforced by its low-end breathlessness and fuel consumption. I agree it has its good points and has a good pedigree as a solid long-lasting engine, but it is very average. Something has to be done to improve the powertrain so that it works better for the car while improving its fuel efficiency.

As a personal project I would love to drop a Rover V8 into a Territory to give it that low-end grunt and unbeatable V8 sound - and I suspect the economy would be little different. However, Holden's Adventra exercise shows how distastrous it can be marketing a V8 as the basic engine. Not one for today's world!

[darkfang888]

Sorry, wasn't meant to include Territory owners. I agree, the territory is awesome and should have a V8 option! But the traditional Falcon: falcon, fairmont, futura etc. should keep the straight six or lose it's identity. I also agree that the powertrain does need work, but give Ford time - they've only just pulled their asses out of the fire with BA (NOT saying that AU's are bad - I personally like a lot of them, but you have to admit it did hurt Ford... although having said that, Ford's problems started with EL/EF according to former boss Geoff Polites.)

[Raptor]

Well I agree with darkfang888 and I am a Territory owner.

For me the Territory was the prefered choice BECAUSE it shares the Falcon drivetrain, in particular the 4.0l I6, and similar suspension and overall sound engineering.

Yes, the drivetrain could be better. Wait for the 6-speed auto and I doubt you'll be complaing about the engine. Also, Ford havn't even started to get the most from this engine. The seperately variable cam phasing hasn't been capitalised on yet, then there's the low-blow turbo that isn't even begining to tax the engine.

If Ford change to a V6 I may as well buy a Commodore sedan or Hyundai Santa Fe. :silly:

[new2ford]

If Ford change to a V6 I may as well buy a Commodore sedan or Hyundai Santa Fe. :silly:
BTW I agree with you both about the V6 - I'm not opposed to the straight six Falcon engine, its a good engine. Just saying that the powertrain generally needs a bit more development for its application in the Terri and I am sure Ford will give us something to look forward to in that regard.

[johnydep]

On the weekend, I was reading some info on the Volkswagen Touareg V10 TDI and found out that the engine is alloy with no cast iron cylinder inserts, they use a Plasma coating on the cylinder walls to create a hardened surface that the piston rings can run on.
Looks like alloy engines are here for the long term & will give CGI a run for it's money.

Now I am 100% convinced Ford Oz need to produce the I6 in alloy using the techniques developed by VW, this would be a very light-weight engine with export potential. :eclipsee_
http://www.kolbenschmidt.de/pdfdoc/vw_r5_gb_e.pdf
Potential of aluminium in sparkignition engines hardly leveraged so far
To date, gasoline engines have hardly exploited the strength potential of aluminium. An optimization of the common AlSiCu and AlSiMg casting alloys, heat treatment and influence on the solidification (the casting process) will mobilise significant strength and hardness potentials. In view of the increasing component loads, however, aluminium is competing with compacted graphite iron (CGI). Thanks to its more favourable material characteristics as compared to lamellar-graphite cast iron, smaller cross sections can be implemented. But in diesel engine applications, the resulting mass reduction potential is also far from reaching the amount expected for aluminium.

……………..The aluminium cylinder bore surfaces with high silicon content, which have proven suitable in spark-ignition engines of premier-class passenger cars, are still met with skepticism as far as diesel cars are concerned. With “atmospheric plasma spraying” (APS), VW has conquered new territory, which is already being implemented in batch production for the new in-line 5 and V10-cylinder TDI® engines.

4. Perspectives for aluminium engine blocks in diesel engines
With the example of the in-line 5-cylinder and V 10-cylinder TDI® engines, KS Aluminium Technologie AG has managed to furnish a sustainable proof of the capability of aluminium engine blocks in highly loaded passenger car DI diesel engines, based on a very close co-operation with customer Volkswagen AG. The low-pressure die casting process has proven to be a reliable basis for a successful component optimisation. It has become possible to implement very complex, highly demanding components and to reliably fulfil specifications with regard to component strength and coatability of the cylinder bores, to mention but a few advantages.

Will the aluminium engine block stay a temporary phenomenon or not?
The answer will not only depend on the further development of the firing pressure. It is anticipated that the current state may be replaced by significantly higher pressures in the near future.
The remaining potential in the areas of component design, cylinder surface technologies like plasma- sprayed coating, aluminium cast alloys including heat treatment and in the casting processes, suggests that aluminium will continue its advance in diesel engines. KS Aluminium- Technologie AG regards this as a broad field of activity for the required optimisations over the next few years. Aluminium will thus have a secured market share in passenger-car DI diesel engines as well.
http://www.autospeed.com/cms/A_2100/article.html
http://www.germancarfans.com/news.cfm/NewsID/2030324.001/volkswagen/1.html

[CGI]

Toyota Racing Development USA

Uses Compacted Graphite Iron

Cylinder Block for NASCAR Engine

Toyota Racing Development (TRD USA) has introduced a new Compacted Graphite Iron (CGI) cylinder block for its NASCAR Craftsman series pick-up truck racing programs. The V8 cylinder block, developed in tandem with Tupy of Brazil, one of the world’s leading iron foundries, and the CGI process control specialist SinterCast, represents the state-of-the-art in CGI cylinder block design, moulding complexity, process control capability and castability. The TRD USA V8 incorporates a minimum wall thickness of just 3.0 mm and uses approximately 40% more sand cores than a conventional V8 cylinder block in order to optimize weight reduction. With a cylinder block weight of just 89 kg, the 5.8 litre V8 engine provides 650 horsepower (83.5 kW/litre). The new CGI cylinder block was unveiled by TRD USA at the Performance Racing Industry (PRI) Trade Show in Indianapolis on 9 December 2004.

Mr. Luiz Tarquínio, President and C.E.O. of Tupy said: "The development of the TRD V8 has allowed Tupy to define the absolute limits of lightweight CGI cylinder block design and foundry production capability. This niche program has provided valuable CGI design and production experience to Tupy. The TRD development has provided another opportunity for Tupy to establish itself as the world leader in CGI product development and production capability."

Dr. Steve Dawson, President & CEO of SinterCast said: "The TRD program sets new standards for the performance, durability and the lightweight capabilities of CGI. It also provides an important first CGI reference for SinterCast within the Toyota Group. The results achieved with the state-of-the-art TRD V8 cylinder block will undoubtedly motivate new CGI design features and product applications in both the passenger vehicle and commercial vehicle sectors."

Joinville and Stockholm, 13 December 2004

http://www.sintercast.com/data/content/DOCUMENTS/20041213105131574TRD%20FINAL.pdf


Audi is now using CGI in the entire fleet of V-diesels with 2,7-liter V6, 3-liter V6 and a 4 liter V8.
Ford /Citoroen/Peugeot is estimating the 2,7 liter V6-production to some 300.000 engines annually.

Production right now (http://www.sintercast.com/default.asp?groupid=20043514359304&firstlevelid=200435133818197)

[CGI]

SinterCast has entered into a new Representation Agreement with Pantech Engineering Pty Ltd of Melbourne,
Australia for representation in the Australian and New Zealand foundry markets, including the support of two ongoing CGI development programs. Pantech has over thirty years of experience in providing melting equipment,process control solutions, and engineering service throughout the Australian and Asia-Pacific foundry industries.

The collaboration with Pantech provides SinterCast with a strong and respected local presence as we continue to expand our market activities.

-------------------------------------
"including the support of two ongoing CGI development programs."Pantech (http://www.furneng.com.au/)

[johnydep]

SinterCast has entered into a new Representation Agreement with Pantech Engineering Pty Ltd of Melbourne,
Australia for representation in the Australian and New Zealand foundry markets, including the support of two ongoing CGI development programs. Pantech has over thirty years of experience in providing melting equipment,process control solutions, and engineering service throughout the Australian and Asia-Pacific foundry industries.

The collaboration with Pantech provides SinterCast with a strong and respected local presence as we continue to expand our market activities.

-------------------------------------
"including the support of two ongoing CGI development programs."Pantech (http://www.furneng.com.au/)

Very interesting CGI.

Using CGIron would mean less development time, as the engine block & head could be kept to similar design/guidelines that are used now, whereas an aluminium engine similar to the VW would require a complete redesign.
Another benefit; using the same block & cylinder head made of CGIron for a petrol & diesel version.

Is it possible?

[CGI]

I think that Audi has something like that going on. Petrolengines are not that loaded yet, but other injectionsystems are on the move and that might be the trigger. The fact that Toyota now is using CGI in the NASCAR racing in petrolengines because the other materials couldn´t stand the load is a most interesting circumstance and I think this is just the beginning. Read this about different applications, and here they even write about a NEW FORD V8.

Value Rich Magazine (http://www.sintercast.com/data/content/DOCUMENTS/200410413227209Value_Rich.pdf)

more clippings at

Clippings (http://www.sintercast.com/default.asp?groupid=200435141314325&firstlevelid=200435133847269)

[CGI]

2. The materials scenario:
Aluminum alloys will hardly endure the high pressure numbers mentioned above for cylinder blocks (Martin et all, 2003). Some studies from AVL set limits of 170 bar (for inline engines) and 150 bar (for V engines) for aluminum in diesel engine cylinder blocks A particular weak point of aluminum alloys is theirmechanical strength fast drop for raising temperatures. For cylinder blocks, the bulkhead and the bearing caps threads are critical stressed areas (Vollrath, 2003).

Diesel and CGI (http://www.tupy.com.br/downloads/guesser/compacted_graphite_iron_for_diesel.pdf)

[johnydep]

2. The materials scenario:
Aluminum alloys will hardly endure the high pressure numbers mentioned above for cylinder blocks (Martin et all, 2003). Some studies from AVL set limits of 170 bar (for inline engines) and 150 bar (for V engines) for aluminum in diesel engine cylinder blocks A particular weak point of aluminum alloys is theirmechanical strength fast drop for raising temperatures. For cylinder blocks, the bulkhead and the bearing caps threads are critical stressed areas (Vollrath, 2003).

Diesel and CGI (http://www.tupy.com.br/downloads/guesser/compacted_graphite_iron_for_diesel.pdf)

That article is out-dated, or biased.
As mentioned in http://www.kolbenschmidt.de/pdfdoc/vw_r5_gb_e.pdf VW are now using Alloy blocks with no cylinder liners for their Turbo Direct Injection diesel V10 & I5 engines.
The article also states; Potential of aluminium in sparkignition engines hardly leveraged so far To date, gasoline engines have hardly exploited the strength potential of aluminium. and
It is anticipated that the current state may be replaced by significantly higher pressures in the near future.
The remaining potential in the areas of component design, cylinder surface technologies like plasma- sprayed coating, aluminium cast alloys including heat treatment and in the casting processes, suggests that aluminium will continue its advance in diesel engines.

A diesel engine, especially a TDI, will exert a lot more pressure than any petrol engine. That includes the Toyota.
Toyota used the CGI for other reasons, one possibly being that the CGI was the only material that they had access to at the time that was strong enough for their needs.

For interest sake, what material does the other manufacturers involved in the race use?

[new2ford]

As I've mentioned before, the alloy Rover V8 has been around for decades (it started life as a GM engine in the 1950s) with no apparent problems - it has been an outstandingly successful engine. There must be examples from other manufacturers also. The presence/lack of problems in alloy engines or heads must have something to do with the quality of the alloy used.

[johnydep]

As I've mentioned before, the alloy Rover V8 has been around for decades (it started life as a GM engine in the 1950s) with no apparent problems - it has been an outstandingly successful engine. There must be examples from other manufacturers also. The presence/lack of problems in alloy engines or heads must have something to do with the quality of the alloy used.

Definetly a alloy quality issue.

I have read that the more magnesium added to alloy the better it can handle heat & corrosion, the casting process has alot to do with quality as well.

I hope Ford have overcome thier issues with poor quality alloy. How many remember the alloy problems with XE & XF cylinder heads, and EF & EL thermostat base & cover housings?
Don't blame coolants, other manufacturers have used alloy and never had problems as bad as those Ford examples.

Quality is paramount.

[CGI]

That article is out-dated, or biased.
As mentioned in http://www.kolbenschmidt.de/pdfdoc/vw_r5_gb_e.pdf VW are now using Alloy blocks with no cylinder liners for their Turbo Direct Injection diesel V10 & I5 engines.

Well, I hope that you are aware of that the VW V10 was presented already in 2001?
V10 in Wienna (http://www.xn--vk-eka.at/symp_2001/nachl_en/index.htm#Neue%20Motoren%202)

It´s pretty long time ago and stating "outdated" about the HighTech from today is not realistic.

Worse....VW V10 TDI is so old and unefficient that it´s stopped in the US by EPA

USA: Umweltbehörde stoppt Verkauf des Touareg V10 TDI
Die amerikanische Umweltschutzbehörde (EPA - Environmental Protection Agency) hat den Verkauf des VW Touareg V10 TDI aus dem Modelljahrgang 2005 in den USA gestoppt. Dies bestätigte Volkswagen auf Anfrage von auto-motor-und-sport.de.

V10 aluminium diesel stopped (http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/d/78743)

[johnydep]

Well, I hope that you are aware of that the VW V10 was presented already in 2001?
V10 in Wienna (http://www.xn--vk-eka.at/symp_2001/nachl_en/index.htm#Neue%20Motoren%202)

It´s pretty long time ago and stating "outdated" about the HighTech from today is not realistic.

Worse....VW V10 TDI is so old and unefficient that it´s stopped in the US by EPA

USA: Umweltbehörde stoppt Verkauf des Touareg V10 TDI
Die amerikanische Umweltschutzbehörde (EPA - Environmental Protection Agency) hat den Verkauf des VW Touareg V10 TDI aus dem Modelljahrgang 2005 in den USA gestoppt. Dies bestätigte Volkswagen auf Anfrage von auto-motor-und-sport.de.

V10 aluminium diesel stopped (http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/d/78743)

I'm not being picky here, just having a civil debate.

The V10 may be inefficient, but what I am pointing out is the material that is used.
In the past, alloy was always thought of as too weak for the production of diesel cylinder heads or blocks.
When I read the article on the V10, I was surprised as I had never heard of such a design. I thought only CGI could be used to produce light/strong diesel engines, but as the article states, alloy has a lot of potential, and may be lighter than CGI.
http://www.kolbenschmidt.de/pdfdoc/vw_r5_gb_e.pdf
Low-Pressure Die Casting: First-Choice for Highly Loaded
Aluminium Engine Blocks for VW In-line 5 and V 10-Cylinder TDI® Diesel Engines

Great info coming so far,keep it coming.

[paulvdb]

As I've mentioned before, the alloy Rover V8 has been around for decades (it started life as a GM engine in the 1950s) with no apparent problems - it has been an outstandingly successful engine. There must be examples from other manufacturers also. The presence/lack of problems in alloy engines or heads must have something to do with the quality of the alloy used.
I know you've brought this up before new2ford but you'd have to admit that these weren't exactly high-stressed engines (147hp @ 5000rpm)

[CGI]

Today Navistar showed their new big bore diesel, with block in CGI.

-- Performance-driven direct injection high-pressure common rail electronic fuel system capable of multiple injection events.
-- Durable single overhead cam actuated with four-valves/cylinder and roller rocker arms.
-- Compacted Graphite Iron cylinder block for high strength and low weight.

Navistar (http://www.internationaldelivers.com/site_layout/engine/press_conference_summary.pdf)

[new2ford]

I know you've brought this up before new2ford but you'd have to admit that these weren't exactly high-stressed engines (147hp @ 5000rpm)
Quite true - but probably a good reason for their success.

[johnydep]

Not entirely correct.

..........................

Worse....VW V10 TDI is so old and unefficient that it´s stopped in the US by EPA

USA: Umweltbehörde stoppt Verkauf des Touareg V10 TDI
Die amerikanische Umweltschutzbehörde (EPA - Environmental Protection Agency) hat den Verkauf des VW Touareg V10 TDI aus dem Modelljahrgang 2005 in den USA gestoppt. Dies bestätigte Volkswagen auf Anfrage von auto-motor-und-sport.de.

V10 aluminium diesel stopped (http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/d/78743)

Sales have been suspended by VW in 5 states, Mercedes have also had problems. And the problem has not been the engine, but the high Sulphur content of the diesel.
In the US, emission systems are required to work for 100,000miles.

http://www.edmunds.com/advice/specialreports/articles/93338/article.html
.....The big challenge is that the emissions control systems, which filter out nitrogen oxides and particulates, don't work well with today's U.S. diesel fuel, because it has a much higher sulfur content than Europe's diesel fuel. The EPA has mandated diesel fuel be produced with a lower sulfur content, but that change won't take full effect until 2006.....

.......The diesel version of the Mercedes-Benz E-Class sedan, slated to be introduced in the U.S. in 2004, will meet the 45-state emissions standards — meaning it won't be sold in California, New York, Vermont, Massachusetts and Maine, where emissions standards are the strictest. By eliminating sales in these five states............
............At issue with creating a diesel engine that meets the stricter emissions standards of the future is the durability of the emissions control equipment. Toyota is one of several major automakers that are taking a conservative approach in the U.S.............."We are not confident that we can meet standards for the useful life of the engine." Toyota has noted that as the systems wear to 100,000 miles and beyond they are no longer effective at meeting the emissions standards........
http://media.vw.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=9549
An unexpected EPA test requirement will suspend sales for the 2005 model year of Volkswagen’s Touareg V10 TDI, the largest and most powerful direct-injection diesel engine available in an SUV.

The V10 TDI represents a fraction of Volkswagen’s total Touareg volume with projected sales of about 450 units annually. The EPA’s recent decision to require more tests involve a liquid additive that Volkswagen uses in its exhaust treatment system to reduce emissions. This additive has been successfully used in Europe with good result; however, the EPA determined it needed to conduct its own testing.
Volkswagen sold 2004 model-year Touareg V10 but new 2005 requirements required the update to the V10’s exhaust filtration.

Volkswagen said the model year suspension of sales of the V10 is disappointing but is only a temporary setback in creating a family of advanced, powerful, clean and very fuel efficient diesel engines.

“We know we are pushing the envelope in high-tech diesels and that pioneering new technology involves complex setbacks; however, this unexpected testing requirement is a technicality in meeting EPA requirements and we understand the decision, even though we may not agree with it. We are more determined than ever to bring the most advanced and cleanest possible diesel engines to this market, since we know that diesels can be a real solution for conserving fuel and being even more environmentally responsible.”

NOTE: Since its debut in the U.S., Volkswagen’s V10 TDI in the Touareg has been widely regarded as one of the world’s most advanced engines in the market. The V10 TDI, a powerful, high-tech diesel engine, showed that Volkswagen’s diesel vehicles not only provide significant fuel savings but also offer very desirable performance that attracts customers who demand the best power delivery without compromise.

As a leader in the development of clean diesel engines, Volkswagen was determined to bring the V10 TDI to the world’s greatest car market and show that a high output TDIs are great to drive and therefore desirable to a wide public.

Now back on to the topic, the mention of CGI brought in ideas of a new metal that is lighter & more durable than alloy.
Alloy has always had a bit of a reputation for being weak and having warpage & corrosion problems,
CGI is a stronger material, but is no lighter than cast iron, the way manufacturers claim weight reductions is by using less material in critical areas, such as around cylinder bores, which is achievable because of its extra strength. This mainly benefits diesel engines which are under a lot more stress than petrol, so require thicker castings, in petrol engines the castings are not as thick, so there is not much that can be taken away(98% of CGI engines are diesel). This means that the only benefit in making a petrol engine in CGI is strength. Do consumers need stronger blocks?
My point of Ford producing a single engine block/cylinder head out of CGI for petrol & diesel fuel systems, was because that is the only way I see a manufacturer going through the expense of changing all their engine plant to suit the new material.
Whereas with alloy, new techniques have been found that allow alloy to be used in turbo diesel engines, this means that the strength of these alloy blocks can easily cope with the pressures of petrol & turbo petrol engines, with the added benefit of being a lot lighter than cast & CGI. And the manufacturer does not have to throw out all their machinery and start with new, a lot of the machinery can be modified, and machinery for cylinder head production do not need any modification.
With a CGI block, why would you want to use an alloy head, especially if the engine is a dual purpose design, diesel/petrol. So there is another expense, new machinery for CGI heads.

CGI sounds very impressive, but for the Ford straight 6, I'd like to see it built with the same material & techniques that VW use.
I6 alloy block with plasma coated cylinder walls.

[CGI]

Now even in an inline 6 cyl.....

International Big Bore Engine Unveiled at MATS

4/1/2005
International Truck and Engine Corp. offered the first look at its new International brand big bore diesel engine at the Mid-America Trucking Show.
The new line of big bore diesels will provide greater choice to owners and operators of Class 8 highway tractors and severe service trucks. The fully emissions compliant engine, in the 11- to 13-liter range, is projected to debut in International Class 8 vehicles in the fall of 2007.

Compacted Graphite Iron cylinder block for high strength and low weight.

Navistar (http://www.internationaldelivers.com/site_layout/engine/press_conference_summary.pdf)

:hump:

[johnydep]

Now even in an inline 6 cyl.....

International Big Bore Engine Unveiled at MATS

4/1/2005
International Truck and Engine Corp. offered the first look at its new International brand big bore diesel engine at the Mid-America Trucking Show.
The new line of big bore diesels will provide greater choice to owners and operators of Class 8 highway tractors and severe service trucks. The fully emissions compliant engine, in the 11- to 13-liter range, is projected to debut in International Class 8 vehicles in the fall of 2007.

Compacted Graphite Iron cylinder block for high strength and low weight.

Navistar (http://www.internationaldelivers.com/site_layout/engine/press_conference_summary.pdf)

:hump:

I think a Territory would look quite strange with a 11 or 13 liter engine :sm_headba up front :hihi: Traction might be a bit of a problem :wink_2:

[johnydep]

Well that's it, all over. Looks like a majority for a straight six all in alloy, now who do I contact at Ford to pass this info on :voldar02:

all alloy straight 6. 47 - 71.21%
V6 alloy. 4 - 6.06%
kept the same. 11 - 16.67%
an import 6. 0 0%
anything, an engine is an engine. 4 - 6.06%
Voters: 66. This poll is closed

[CGI]

In a recent article the two materials are compared. Please read this
http://www.sintercast.com/data/content/DOCUMENTS/2005616162837434Iron%20beats%20out%20aluminium.pdf

Clever design features, embracing thin wall technology made possible by the higher strength CGI material, allowed Audi to pare engine weight down to only 255kg compared with 259kg for the bulkier Mercedes V8. In iron but smaller,
shorter,
pore powerful
and even lighter
:jester:

[Dr Concrete]

hey
you guys know quite abit about the barra I6 motor. Do you guys know what cast material the crankshaft is made from? It really sucks how ford doesn't make a forged crankshaft for the I6, as it really limits power potential.

[Bossxr8]

hey
you guys know quite abit about the barra I6 motor. Do you guys know what cast material the crankshaft is made from? It really sucks how ford doesn't make a forged crankshaft for the I6, as it really limits power potential.
Its cast iron, and how does it limit power potential when turbo engines are making well over 500kw with out any crank breakages.

[Dr Concrete]

well when you reach around 500kw you need to buy a billet crankshaft as the stock crankshaft wont last long with factory machining and finishing . A billet crankshaft at its cheapest is $5000. The cast crankshaft limits the motor to low rpm, i'm goinmg to heat treat one, balance and polish it and hopefully it will be safe at 7500rpm. Do you know what particular type of cast iron it is? Ductile or just plain cast iron? What are its alloying contents?

[chevypower]

Its a bit hard to know if you would prefer it, when they havent released such an engine, sounds good in theory - but so did the Alloytec V6, and personally i think that's a heap of junk - what if Ford already built test vehicles with an alloy (aluminium) block, and it's not what it's cracked up to be? Just a thought, but yeah CGI seems to be the way things are going.

[gz1]

Maybe it's time to revive this thread,
I have been doing a lot of reading from JD's excellent links on this thread, and from others, and I still would stick with my original preference for a V6 engine.
Yes I do agree with you guys that a I6 has the potential to be smoother, however with current technology there is no reason that a V6 cannot be as smooth. Yes I do agree that an I6 has the potential for greater power output due to the need of a V6 to have ballance shafts, to smoothe it out, however the difference this makes would very small.
On the plus side, the V6 is much shorter, has a lower center of gravity and has the potential to be lighter for a given capacity.
Being shorter means the engine weight is further back, which equates to better handling. It also means that the engine can sit entirely behind the crumple zone which in turn means less weight to contain/construct the crumple zone. Lower center of gravity and lighter weight speak for themselfs.
as for smoothness, please don't confuse a modern V6 with the likes of Holdens sorry example as this engine is not at all smooth.

So my vote goes for a V6 be it petrol or turbo diesel. Anyone that has not voted yet care to add their vote?

[Buddy 1]

Why not make an inline 5 cylinder with an Alloy Block & a small supercharger so economy will be better with no power loss?

Or would a 5 not be as well balanced as a six?

[Macka]

I6 is one of only a few motors (v12 and another off memory- can't remember which tho..) that are naturally balanced. Hence why BMW, nissan, etc use it. No need for elaboate balancers. I remember reading an article about it ages ago. Maybe an old wheels mag or something. can't remember. But it stuck!

[johnydep]

Poll is open again.

An I5 would need balance shafts, just like a V6.

As mentioned the I6 is naturally balanced, more so than a V8, but there is the disadvantage of lenght.

I've always been a Holden man, but the one thing that turned me of them was the V6 engine, I swore years ago that I would never own a V6, times change though and I have been very close to owning one, The Territory saved me lol

[chevypower]

When people talk about wanting an alloy engine block, i am assuming they mean aluminium alloy? Cos any mixture of metals could be an alloy. I think this Compact Graphite Iron stuff sounds pretty good.

[chevypower]

Why not make an inline 5 cylinder with an Alloy Block & a small supercharger so economy will be better with no power loss?

Or would a 5 not be as well balanced as a six?

You should buy a Volvo

[Raptor]

......
I've always been a Holden man, but the one thing that turned me of them was the V6 engine.....

Interesting you say that JD. Back when Holden actually made cars (ie. pre-Commodore) I had a leaning towards the red marque as well.

Then they starting using McPherson strut front end, Panhard bars in the rear end or worse still half-arsed IRS systems and then a V6. No thanks.

After a foray into 4x4's that convinced me that truck dynamics were not for me I soon found what I liked in the E-series Falcons that won me over to the blue team. I6 engines, double arm front end, properly located rear end with a Watt's link and things have only got better since then.

With the Terri I have the versatility of the 4x4 wagon body shape (even better IMHO), one of the world's best I6 engines with the Barra™, Virtual Pivot™ front suspension that is a leading edge design and a great IRS with the Control Blade™ plus AWD and engineers that know how to tune it all :)

Complain about the niggling quality control issues if you like (I actually haven't had any issues with how mine is built) but I'll choose good engineering everytime. The finish doesn't matter if the basic engineering foundations aren't right IMO.


For those that want to read more about how engine configuration effects smoothness and balance I'd recommend this series; Engine Smoothness (http://www.autozine.org/technical_school/engine/smooth1.htm)

[Buddy 1]

You should buy a Volvo


lol a Volvo????

Why Coz they make inline 5 cylinders.

Not so sure how a volvo would go on stockton beach lol

[chevypower]

XC90s are very good, havent driven the 5cyl version but the 6 cyl is a very good drive- I was just suggesting something more realistic than asking a company to produce something they dont make, go and find a company that offers something you want - at the end of the day though, i dont think my parents Turbo 5cyl Volvo C70 uses any less fuel than a 4.0L inline 6 Falcon

[MagpieMDP]

The Ford I6 is undoubtably a good engine, and I love it because of the smoothness and all the other advantages mentioned ealier in this thread. But there must be a lot of pressure on Ford Oz to look at standardising on the Ford US V6 as used (in various capacities) in their SUVs, Mondeo, V6 Discovery and various Jags.

As far as the Falcon losing its identity, who would have thought that Jaguar would drop their I6 (so inherently linked with the XJ6) and replace with V8 and eventually V6.

My 2c.

Mike

[johnydep]

The Ford I6 is undoubtably a good engine, and I love it because of the smoothness and all the other advantages mentioned ealier in this thread. But there must be a lot of pressure on Ford Oz to look at standardising on the Ford US V6 as used (in various capacities) in their SUVs, Mondeo, V6 Discovery and various Jags.

As far as the Falcon losing its identity, who would have thought that Jaguar would drop their I6 (so inherently linked with the XJ6) and replace with V8 and eventually V6.

My 2c.

Mike

Well said, and if/when Ford starts to export the Territory will the I6 be the first casualty?

If the OS markets demand a V6 they may get it, if so it will be a said day for I6 fans, I hope Ford Oz use the engine as part of the marketing package.

[glider]

Why does'nt FORD develop a Common rail Direct Injection Turbo Diesel version of the Barra six, ie similar to what BMW have done with their 3 litre straight six.
The Barra with its long stroke design would no doubt develop a huge torque output, and if it could rev to 4500 5000 rpm it would be sensational.

[Falcon Freak]

Ford will be using the current I6 engine for many years to come. It is a better engine then Holden's all new Alloytech V6 so why change?

FF

[Lagom]

Perhaps you should ask the car manufacturers why they continue to use inline 6's? There are many reasons, but instead of listing them, I'll just point out some of the manufacturers who continue to use I6's and some notable examples of I6 engines:
Ford: Falcon
Toyota: Supra
Nissan: Skyline
BMW

...And that is not a complete list. Granted, they're all quite different in a lot of ways, but they all share one basic fact, 6 cylinders, all arranged in one row.

An inline engine is also easier to turbocharge.

[Lagom]

the massive cost in retooling to go cast==>alloy would send most people insane. It would be fantastic to see an all alloy 6, an alloy boss would also be fantatsic to get the fat bastards to loose some weight.

What is the weight saving from going from iron blocks to alloy? I've been told that it's not as big as expected, because alloy engines need thicker blocks.

[Lagom]

Why does'nt FORD develop a Common rail Direct Injection Turbo Diesel version of the Barra six, ie similar to what BMW have done with their 3 litre straight six.
The Barra with its long stroke design would no doubt develop a huge torque output, and if it could rev to 4500 5000 rpm it would be sensational.

I suspect it would cost hundreds of millions just for the engine - how many could you sell/use?

I can't see a diesel 4.0 six revving too happily to 5000rpm :)

[vztrt]

What is the weight saving from going from iron blocks to alloy? I've been told that it's not as big as expected, because alloy engines need thicker blocks.


I think it's like 70kg.
Personally I wouldn't bother and look at other area's to reduce the weight of the car. Also how would an all alloy engine cope with a Turbo.
The big Merc turbo engines don't have all alloy blocs. I'm assuming there would be a good reason why they wouldn't use an all alloy engine.

[Bossxr8]

What is the weight saving from going from iron blocks to alloy? I've been told that it's not as big as expected, because alloy engines need thicker blocks.
About 15kg for the straight 6. Not worth the effort. Better off remove to weight elsewhere. People need to relise that the Barra 6 has alloy inlet manifolds, head, front cover, bellhousing, engine mount brackets, sump, rocker cover, thermostat housing etc. Basically everything is alloy bar the block and exhaust manifold. Going to an alloy block would just add costs and decrease durability.

[vztrt]

About 15kg for the straight 6.

I didn't think it was that little. Man it would be a waste of time in R&D.

[NZ]

About 15kg for the straight 6. Not worth the effort. Better off remove to weight elsewhere. People need to relise that the Barra 6 has alloy inlet manifolds, head, front cover, bellhousing, engine mount brackets, sump, rocker cover, thermostat housing etc. Basically everything is alloy bar the block and exhaust manifold. Going to an alloy block would just add costs and decrease durability.
Pistons :p

[PIMPIN]

as mentioned there are advantages and disadvantages from both I6 and V6... In my view I6 has more potential in terms of performance and refinement, but by the same token you also cannot deny the packaging benefits of a V6, which ultimately translates to more interior space, better crash protection, and potentially better handling (due to better weight distribution). With more and more technologies being employed into engines nowadays, they can only get better as time goes...

at the end of the day, how well it works will depend on how well it is designed and put together by the manufacturer, won't you agree?

different horses for different courses I suppose....

[new2ford]

by the same token you also cannot deny the packaging benefits of a V6, which ultimately translates to more interior space, better crash protection, and potentially better handling (due to better weight distribution).
I would have thought this once Pimpin but look at the Territory compared to its V6 rivals - better interior space (leg room), better handling and a higher ANCAP crash test score. Go figure! As you say, it might depend on how good the designer/manufacturer is. Or - the whole V6 thing is just a beat-up.

[new2ford]

Re the alloy engine block my main experience was the Rover V8 engine which weighed about 170kg. One of you might know what the Ford engine weighs. Leyland Australia used the V8 to great advantage in the Leyland P76 where they achieved a 50-50 weight distribution and great handling and fuel consumption (10.1 - 12.5 Litres per 100 km) - better than the 6 cylinder Territory! The P76 weighed only 1.2 tonnes. But this information is 30 years old. A lot has changed since then.

[daabido]

I read in Wheels magazine and also one of the 4WD magazines is that the Territory is smoother than the Falcon ... and has a different sound during revving (they said is actually sounded better).

Not sure why ... maybe the sound proofing is better and it doesn't sound as "harsh" (not that it is) as the Falcon.

The BF Falcon actually has better sound insulation than the SY Territory.

But I believe the SX Territory had better sound insulation than the BA Falcon.

Boy oh boy I am thankful we live in Australia and have access to such wonderful vehicles :)

EDIT : I just realised this thread is very old and when Mechan1k made these comments the BF and SY may not have been in existence.

[Bossxr8]

The BF Falcon actually has better sound insulation than the SY Territory.

But I believe the SX Territory had better sound insulation than the BA Falcon.

Boy oh boy I am thankful we live in Australia and have access to such wonderful vehicles :)

EDIT : I just realised this thread is very old and when Mechan1k made these comments the BF and SY may not have been in existence.
The BF picked up some of the improvements first used in the Territory, such as the lofted dash, so technically they are the same in some areas although the BF has moved forward a bit.

[Tles]

About 15kg for the straight 6. Not worth the effort. Better off remove to weight elsewhere. People need to relise that the Barra 6 has alloy inlet manifolds, head, front cover, bellhousing, engine mount brackets, sump, rocker cover, thermostat housing etc. Basically everything is alloy bar the block and exhaust manifold. Going to an alloy block would just add costs and decrease durability.

Me thinks BMW use a compressed graphite or something like that block on their Inlines. These offer better strength, vibration etc than an alloy but are not that far removed from cast iron - except they weigh less.

There was talk of moving to a plastic manifold across the range too.

Lotus have just released designs with an integrated manifold with the head. Sounds like overkill, but then they have always been innovative and weight reduction specialists. No gaskets to change either..

My vote remains inline and I'd like to see a TurboDiesel development of the 4.0I6 too.

[Bossxr8]

Me thinks BMW use a compressed graphite or something like that block on their Inlines. These offer better strength, vibration etc than an alloy but are not that far removed from cast iron - except they weigh less.

There was talk of moving to a plastic manifold across the range too.

Lotus have just released designs with an integrated manifold with the head. Sounds like overkill, but then they have always been innovative and weight reduction specialists. No gaskets to change either..

My vote remains inline and I'd like to see a TurboDiesel development of the 4.0I6 too.
BMW use magnesium alloy blocks. Big dollars compared to cast iron.

[mcnamg]

wonder if Ford will look at the Duratec 35 (Cyclone) V6 it was one of Wards top ten engines of 2007 and in standard form produces 198kw.

I know its not a straight six but I guess from a perspective of making the Falcon and Territory a world car not an Aussie car this needs to be considered too

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Cyclone_engine

http://www.topspeed.com/cars/car-news/ford-s-duratec-35-engine-v6-35-ar26325.html

As stated in the article the engine has been designed to be easily turbocharged at a later stage too

[Bossxr8]

wonder if Ford will look at the Duratec 35 (Cyclone) V6 it was one of Wards top ten engines of 2007 and in standard form produces 198kw.

I know its not a straight six but I guess from a perspective of making the Falcon and Territory a world car not an Aussie car this needs to be considered too

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Cyclone_engine

http://www.topspeed.com/cars/car-news/ford-s-duratec-35-engine-v6-35-ar26325.html

As stated in the article the engine has been designed to be easily turbocharged at a later stage too
Like most V6 engines it lacks torque compared to the Barra 190, and probably makes its peak a lot higher than the current straight 6, and hence doesn't suit Fords requirement for the Falcon/Territory. Won't be a match for the Orion 6.

[Tles]

Like most V6 engines it lacks torque compared to the Barra 190, and probably makes its peak a lot higher than the current straight 6, and hence doesn't suit Fords requirement for the Falcon/Territory. Won't be a match for the Orion 6.

The 3.5 Duratec V6 seems to draw plenty of compliments in both Edge and CX9 applications, but more cubic inches would be required here. And they are coming, Ford are going to make this same engine in varying capacities 3.2, 3.5 maybe3.6 too and 3.8 - A lot like HoldEngCo do. This 3.8 would probably do the job admirably.

I'm still not so sure that Ford really need to lose the iron block and go V6 though, the stated need to lose weight has more to do with economy concerns than inherent balance or handling concerns.

The 3.2 inline used in the Volvos eastwest LR2 and so on, show both that Inlines are not boat anchors and can offer the balance and smooth revving advantages of a boxer4 with more accessible torque and grunt than V6s can muster.

[Paxton]

Like most V6 engines it lacks torque compared to the Barra 190, and probably makes its peak a lot higher than the current straight 6, and hence doesn't suit Fords requirement for the Falcon/Territory. Won't be a match for the Orion 6.

You know something we don't?

Just a question on the BMW Straight 6. As far as I know, it isn't straight in the sense that the Falcon 6 is. The BMW six has a slant in it, which adds to the ease of conversion - LHD/RHD.

If Ford are planning to make the Falcon in LHD, how do they plan to overcome the difficulty of pushing a steering column where there is currently hardware? On the Territory, it won't be as hard, however for Falcon, they will have problems. This is partly the reason that V6es appear in more Left Hand Drive RWD cars compared with I6es.

I have an article in an old wheels magazine that BMW conducted that may be of some interest. I'll scan and post now.

[Paxton]

Attached are BMW's findings from a research task that involved them comparing the V6 and the Straight 6 (I6) engine, and testing which one was smoother, and which one had better economies of scale to produce.

It has been taken out of an April 1996 Wheels Mag (the one where they test the Taurus for the first time).

Also attached are the first rumblings of the Barra 182 Engine (Twin-Cam), and a size reduction has also been discussed, which was taken from the April 1997, EL GT vs HSV GTS-R.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b270/paxtonandrew/BMWStraight6Details.jpg

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b270/paxtonandrew/98FalconTwin-Cam1.jpg

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b270/paxtonandrew/98FalconTwin-Cam2.jpg

Sorry to the 56K Users.

[Bossxr8]

You know something we don't?

Just a question on the BMW Straight 6. As far as I know, it isn't straight in the sense that the Falcon 6 is. The BMW six has a slant in it, which adds to the ease of conversion - LHD/RHD.

If Ford are planning to make the Falcon in LHD, how do they plan to overcome the difficulty of pushing a steering column where there is currently hardware? On the Territory, it won't be as hard, however for Falcon, they will have problems. This is partly the reason that V6es appear in more Left Hand Drive RWD cars compared with I6es.

I have an article in an old wheels magazine that BMW conducted that may be of some interest. I'll scan and post now.
Thats the whole point of designing a RHD car to be LHD compatable. It makes it so much easier if it is designed like that from the start, and what the Orion has most likely been designed for. They couldn't just take the BF and make it LHD compatable with a few small changes as it needs to be designed around the steering gear on the left and right. Now that the are designing the Falcon and Territory to be LHD compatable they can move everything around in the engine bay to allow the steering gear to be on either side.

[allypally]

Does this mean that it will be the Lefthand side window that gets stuck instead?

[xwboss]

Volvo has an inline all alloy 6 cylinder and seen as how there five cylinder turbo engine has found its way into the focus, engine sharing is obviously possible. Even though it is smaller capacity Volvo has used it in production twin turbo charged.

[Tles]

Volvo has an inline all alloy 6 cylinder and seen as how there five cylinder turbo engine has found its way into the focus, engine sharing is obviously possible. Even though it is smaller capacity Volvo has used it in production twin turbo charged.

This 3.2 I6 is now available in a Volvo as a 3.0L I6 twin turbo with AWD in the S60...yummm. Too small for T but wouldn't mind one in a Mondeo.

[Martyvan]

This 3.2 I6 is now available in a Volvo as a 3.0L I6 twin turbo with AWD in the S60...yummm. Too small for T but wouldn't mind one in a Mondeo.


That would throw a cat amongst the Luxo Barge Pidgeons....

Euro Build Quality, nicely priced, and QUICK!

Shame unless they bring an ST version out, it wont happen....

[Tles]

Ford will be using the current I6 engine for many years to come. It is a better engine then Holden's all new Alloytech V6 so why change?

FF

I'm thinking along the lines that Territory's engine update will probably be no sooner than twelve months after Orion.
This might allow for a more aftermarket LPG friendly Cylinder head though I doubt that Ford would Factory endorse a conversion. The Egas Falcon probably won't update the LPG system to injection, so only guessing but Territory would make sense as first trial.
Certainly, the Government for one, would have to consider LPG Ts for a more vocal minority friendly fleet option.
Diesel will IMHO happen first in T also. Some time mid8 at earliest so as not to cloud Orion launch. I wouldn't mind a LPG injection turbo diesel setup.

[johnydep]

Now we will find out if the Ford suits take any notice of their customers! Look at the Poll, we want a straight 6 engine. :nothappy:

And what about the LPG option, are there any V6 engines capable of running straight gas in the Ford parts bin?

I'm still hoping Ford have a trick or two up there sleeve for us :evilidea:

Ford 'likely' to close Geelong plant

Ford will hold meetings today with employees at its engine plant in Geelong, south-west of Melbourne, furthering speculation that it is about to axe 600 jobs.

The Australian Manufacturing Workers Union (AMWU) said it had been advised by shop stewards at the Geelong engine plant of meetings set down for 1pm (AEST).

AMWU spokesman Ian Jones said he had not been told by Ford what the meeting was about, but he strongly suspected it was to announce the company would stop making six cylinder engines in Australia.

"It has been rumoured for quite some time," Mr Jones told the Nine Network.

"I've been advised this morning by our shop stewards within the area there are meetings convened for all employees for around 1pm.

"At this stage nobody has bothered to advise the union that they (Ford) will be making any official announcements. But it would appear that is very much on the cards."

It's believed Ford will cease manufacturing its locally-designed in-line six cylinder engine, fitted to its Falcon and Territory range, replacing it with an imported V6 engine.

A downturn in large car sales and a planned cut in tariffs on imported cars from 10 per cent to five per cent in 2010 and tougher new car emissions standards, also due in 2010, have prompted Ford to consider the move.

Mr Jones said if the plant was closed, up to 600 jobs would be lost in Geelong.

"It is a disaster for workers and the community in Geelong," Mr Jones said.

"But it is not just a disaster for Geelong, it is a disaster for the manufacturing industry in Australia."

Federal Industry Minister Ian Macfarlane has confirmed the closure.

When asked if the government would offer financial support for the plant, Mr Macfarlane said only that it had already handed Ford $80 million in the past two years to improve the local engine's efficiency and to assist with the new generation Falcon, to be released next year.

Victorian Premier Steve Bracks says any job losses at Ford would be "disturbing," and the government would offer its support to workers hit hard at the car giant's Geelong plant.

"We haven't had the details yet because, I understand, the workforce is being briefed by Ford today and the company will make an announcement," Mr Bracks told reporters.

"We'll, obviously, stand by Ford workers and make sure we assist and support those workers if there is a change.

"We have invested in Ford and invested in new production, we've invested in making sure they can produce for a long term in this state and we'd be very disturbed to see of any job loss," he said.

Ford Australia, which was established in Geelong in 1925, also has a factory at Broadmeadows in Melbourne's north.

Local federal Labor MP Gavan O'Connor says job losses at Ford's Geelong plant would have substantial flow-on effects for the regional Victorian city.

Federal Corio MP Mr O'Connor said significant job losses would deal a heavy blow to the city's manufacturing industry.

"At one stage, we had something like 6,000 jobs in direct manufacturing and in the automotive supply chain. That has been whittled down now to some 2,000 jobs and, of course, this is going to deal a very heavy blow if this announcement is made by Ford to the manufacturing future of the city," he told ABC Radio.

"The flow-on effects are really substantial.

"Of course, it's the immediate effects on households.

"We have young families, people who have been trained in Ford in the automotive industry whose futures are at risk, so they are big spenders in the community. It's as simple as that.

"We are very concerned and we're just really awaiting Ford's announcement, I understand, at 1pm."

But, Mr O'Connor said, while Geelong was a vulnerable city, it was a one and would look to new opportunities.

"One of the vulnerabilities of the city is it's major manufacturing base is foreign owned, with Alcoa, with Shell and with Ford, so we have to look to new opportunities and I think Avalon Airport holds part of that key."

Brought to you by AAP



© AAP 2007

[jweb]

yes the inline 6 is better,but ford wont spend the money in research adn development because it is risky and the demand is not there.The v6 is not all bad by the sounds of it it will be very good,i dont think the lack of torque will be a problem i amy be wrong.Does anyone know how much the barra 190 weighs comapared to this new propsed engine?.

[johnydep]

Since Ford have answered the question, I see no point in keeping this thread open.

The V6 is our next engine.

With Ford being the only manufacturer using a cast iron block for their 6's and requiring a weight reduction for the Territory, I figure they may be up for another major engine mod soon, or another engine.

I'd prefer the same six with an alloy block, I love straight sixes & V8's, but I wouldn't want to own a V6 because of all the extra mechanical complexities required to try & smooth them out. Look at the new Holden V6; they spent a fortune on it and all the motor writers comment on its harsh sound & feel.
http://www.answers.com/topic/straight-engine

A straight six is also a great selling point for Ford.

So let’s hear what you all reckon.