Sluggish engine - do I just need to run it in?

[TerritoryLover]

My Territory was in for a service today, and I was given another one as a loan car. The loaner seemd a lot more peppy than mine - it had 9000km on the clock versus my 3000. Why would mine seem more sluggish? Is this just because it hasn't been fully run in yet? Or should I suspect something more serious?

[grahill]

RWD or AWD? TX, TS or Ghia? RWD is lighter, and TX is lighter than the TS and Ghia, but only marginally.

.

[TerritoryLover]

I have a TS RWD, the loaner was TX AWD.

[RATT]

It would be the km. Give a few thousand more km and you'll find she will feel stronger. Also don't baby it!

[johnydep]

I noticed a definite improvement at 5000km and now that the engine has passed the 10,000km mark, it feels better again.

Get an oil change at 5000km, I found that it helped the engine to feel better & fuel economy got better. Also I was monitering the wear particles in the oil, and at 5000km I changed it. Here are my results; http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=6663

[Mechan1k]

It would be the km. Give a few thousand more km and you'll find she will feel stronger. Also don't baby it!

Good advice ... everytime I have had a new car (a few times now) ... I was told the same ... and the car keeps getting better and better.

I found with my previous car ... that it kept getting better after 15,000km ... and fred-up a bit more after 20,000km. Mind you ... I put over 80,000km on the car in the first year ... give it a bit of time ... and put some km under it.
You'll find after a few long highway/country runs it will get even better.

If it is driven around town all the time ... it doesn't get the full use of the rev/speed range ... not long highway driving ... every now and again give it a good highway run ... does the world of good for the vehicle.

Mines at 9,000km now ... but my fiancee only drives short distances to and from work (I hardly drive it now) ... and when I get in it ... it feels very tight still .... me thinks it's time for a road trip in it :lol:

[TerritoryLover]

Get an oil change at 5000km, I found that it helped the engine to feel better & fuel economy got better. Also I was monitering the wear particles in the oil, and at 5000km I changed it. Here are my results; http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=6663

Thanks for this. I notice you used a synthetic oil on your first oil change. I'm a fan of synthetic oils as well (Mobil 1) but I've heard that maybe it is best to wait until the car has run in a bit more, as sythetics are so good that they won't allow some of the finer wear that you actually want in the early days. Your thoughts?

[bfiipursuit]

Noticed this with all our 4.0L 182 sixes, now we have had 3 of them (BA Futura / BA XR6 / SX GHIA). My BA XR6 has only done around 8000 kms and it has freed up alot, as for the Territory its still under 3,000 and feeling alright, but theres room for improvement. Our First 02 BA Futura opened up alot after 10,000 kms, so hopefully these 2 will aswell.

[johnydep]

Thanks for this. I notice you used a synthetic oil on your first oil change. I'm a fan of synthetic oils as well (Mobil 1) but I've heard that maybe it is best to wait until the car has run in a bit more, as sythetics are so good that they won't allow some of the finer wear that you actually want in the early days. Your thoughts?

That is why I waited till the engine had done approx 5000km, but after seeing the PPM of the original oil I would not be worried about draining the oil on my next new vehicle as soon as I get it.

Most, if not all high performance vehicles come with full synthetic oil from the factory. Examples include Corvette - Mobil1, Porsche Cayenne - Mobil1. The synthetic I put in my engine is used by Mercedes as a factory fill.

I was going to use a lower viscosity oil, 0W20 GT1, but thought I'd use an oil closer to the Ford recomendation until I had more km's on the engine, probably about 30,000km.

As the oil analysis shows, the wear rates of my engine have dropped dramatically, and there has been no adverse reaction. After over 5000km with the sythetic oil, the level has not dropped, there is no unusual noise, no smoke, nothing, everything is perfect.

The guys at FUCHS told me that all the export Commodores are factory filled with a full synthetic oil, but the Oz models get a mineral oil to keep the costs down.

Go for a synthetic, keep to a similar viscosity for a while then use your favourite Mobil1 in the 0W40 guise.

[Territory]

It would be the km. Give a few thousand more km and you'll find she will feel stronger. Also don't baby it!

Personally I'd agree with all that, especially the last comment!

[Ouzo]

Also don't baby it
Territory - is that the official Ford position?

[Territory]

Territory - is that the official Ford position?
:voldar02: It's based on no technical evidence at all. Just my personal opinion. After having lived with and driven dozens of vehicles for hundereds of thousands of k's. I think engines overall seem to bed in / loosen up / perform better with occasional "workout".

[Danny]

Dont the ECU's change their settings at 5-10 grand after run in? SOmeone told me that they do? If so maybe thats whats happeneing....

-Dan

[I AM FORDLESS!]

My brother in law who works on the coal face in Melbourne tells me there is up to 15% difference in power outputs of each Bara 4.0 litre so it sounds like you got a sluggy one.

The Japanese manufacturers he tells me have close to 2 % difference only in one motor to the next .

Get it on a dyno and take the results to Ford.

[Iouri]

My brother in law who works on the coal face in Melbourne tells me there is up to 15% difference in power outputs of each Bara 4.0 litre so it sounds like you got a sluggy one.

The Japanese manufacturers he tells me have close to 2 % difference only in one motor to the next .

Get it on a dyno and take the results to Ford.
Isn't FORD guarantee 182kW out of Barra182? Having 15% variation means you can have up to 209kW.

:shootout:

[Laminge]

My brother in law who works on the coal face in Melbourne tells me there is up to 15% difference in power outputs of each Bara 4.0 litre so it sounds like you got a sluggy one.

The Japanese manufacturers he tells me have close to 2 % difference only in one motor to the next .

Get it on a dyno and take the results to Ford.

Bwahahaha

Imagine that, another one in the family!!!

[johnydep]

Never more than 182kw. Always less.

That would mean that the Barra could end up being as low as 155Kw.

That sounds like a good reason for a law suit against Ford for false advertising.

Ford state that the Falcon & Territory with the Bara engine has 180kw

[I AM FORDLESS!]

That would mean that the Barra could end up being as low as 155Kw.

That sounds like a good reason for a law suit against Ford for false advertising.

Ford state that the Falcon & Territory with the Bara engine has 180kw

2 true

[johnydep]

Well, sounds like we need some dyno figures.

Anyone in Ford Forum land have some dyno figures for us.

[RATT]

What does around 143rwkw equate to for a rwd?

[johnydep]

What does around 143rwkw equate to for a rwd?

I think you lose a third through the drive train, so that would work out to
190kw

[RATT]

If that's the case an XT auto 6cyl made 143rwkw according to Motor mag. This should reflect Territory rwd too.

[XA-Coupe]

That would mean that the Barra could end up being as low as 155Kw.

That sounds like a good reason for a law suit against Ford for false advertising.

Ford state that the Falcon & Territory with the Bara engine has 180kw

That's assuming Gerbil Boy (tm) is actually right.. which I highly doubt.

[Iouri]

If that's the case an XT auto 6cyl made 143rwkw according to Motor mag. This should reflect Territory rwd too.
Can you give a link or reference, please?

[johnydep]

That's assuming Gerbil Boy (tm) is actually right.. which I highly doubt.

That was the point I was trying to make. I doubt Ford would risk being sued by every Barra six owner.

I remeber reading an article years ago that stated that engine power was quoted on the low side, so if there where variations, they were in the owners favour.

[Paxton]

Although I have a worsening Ping in the engine, and a gearbox that lurches when taking off from the stop, my engine is peppy and powerful. It goes hard when pushed, revving all the way to 6K in 1st, and feels more powerful and lighter than my AU111 XR6 (manual). I have done 9,000 Kms on it. Hopefully the Ping and the Gearbox will be fixed next week when it goes in to get some other (internal) issues fixed.

There feels like the full 182Kw inside my bonnet. I would hate to see the legal repercussions if Ford was lying about the Power in their cars.


-Andrew

[johnydep]

Can you give a link or reference, please?

From Tiges http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=7705

In the latest MOTOR mag thats out they did a dyno of the XR6 and the XT. The XR6 was in manual and got 146.5rwkw and the XT in auto got 143.3rwkw. My old man's XR6 in auto got 136rwkw with only a cat back exhaust on it.
With mods on the car I know of a XR6 that did 165rwkw with the usual mods (headers, hi-flow cats, unichip, filter, air intake)

EDIT To convert rear wheel power to flywheel power just add 33% and that should be very close.

[Iouri]

From Tiges http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=7705
.....

EDIT To convert rear wheel power to flywheel power just add 33% and that should be very close.
Someone who knows dyno procedure very well. How typical is this 33% number? The driveline loses... Is this fully applicable to Terri? What is the variations between different models? I have no doubt in Ford quoted 182 kW, but it is an interesting issue.

[johnydep]

Someone who knows dyno procedure very well. How typical is this 33% number? The driveline loses... Is this fully applicable to Terri? What is the variations between different models? I have no doubt in Ford quoted 182 kW, but it is an interesting issue.

The 33% was something I was told by an old performance freak that was also a TAFE Dyno lecturer, about 15 years ago.
He also said that there is only one true way to get flywheel horsepower, put the engine and only the engine on to a engine dyno.

http://www.germanmotorcars.com/Dyno_load%20vs%20inertia_1.htm
Crankshaft horsepower vs. true rear wheel horsepower. That's a tough one. As each vehicle is different, the best way is to dyno the engine and then dyno the vehicle to see exactly what the loss is. The best estimate I can give you based on experience and research is take crankshaft horsepower, subtract 14.5% ( search SAE ), take that, and subtract around 10% to 15% and you'll get about true horsepower at the rear wheels. The actual formula contains a curve for power loss through gears and there's another curve for power lost in a tire. Remember, too - that unless you dyno your engine you are only likely to get a crankshaft number from the manufacturer and that's probably a "good" one that the marketing department is providing.
http://neptune.spacebears.com/opine/horsepwr.html
Advertised Horsepower
Surprise! Those horsepower numbers presented in advertising and brochures aren't always accurate. Though manufacturers are supposed to base their horsepower ratings on SAE net standards, they are not completely beholden to it. They often fudge the numbers. Ford and Mazda both recently got in trouble with the Mustang Cobra and the MX-5 Miata, respectively, when they delivered a car that had less horsepower than what they advertised. Ford ended up doing considerable warranty work to bring the numbers up where they belonged, and Mazda re-rated their car and offered to buy back any offended customers' cars. General Motors regularly underrates their engines, most notably the GM LS1 5.7L engine as installed in the F-body (Camaro and Firebird) cars. Mechanically almost identical to the engines installed in the Y-body car (Corvette), the engine mysteriously "lost" 40 advertised horsepower in the F-body chassis. Although this technically is as fraudulent as selling a car with less than the advertised horsepower, no one seems to complain when they get a car with more horsepower than what appears on the spec sheet.............
Vapor Horsepower?
For people in the habit of thinking about SAE net horsepower, or old musclecar enthusiasts accustomed to SAE gross numbers, looking at real-world rear-wheel horsepower can be quite a wake-up call. This 1970 Charger makes an excellent example. Its 318 was factory rated in 1970 at 230 horsepower (SAE gross). But on the dyno it came just short of 150 horsepower (corrected rear-wheel). Where did that 80 horsepower go?
Since that Charger is an automatic, roughly 20% of it went to turning the drivetrain. That puts it at somewhere around 188 SAE net horsepower (or to use American manufacturers' penchant for rounding up, 190). But since the factory number uses SAE gross, there's another 20% difference. And that puts us at 235 horsepower, just about where it needs to be. It all adds up, and the same engine can have an 80 hp difference through no other fault than the means by which the power is measured


EDIT: http://neptune.spacebears.com/opine/horsepwr.html
Even looking at dyno numbers, though, it's important to exercise some caution. Dynos measure horsepower under the conditions of the day, then apply a mathematical conversion to bring the numbers in line with SAE J1349. The raw numbers can vary substantially. In one dyno test of a 1998 Firebird conducted several days apart, the same car ran a raw number of 284 horsepower one day, and 299 horsepower on a rather colder day...........

[ferris42]

I had my AWD Ghia dyno'd because of similar issues
110 KW at the (all ) wheels
Less when it gets hot !!
As I am in Darwin , the ambient of 35c will be playing a big part

btw, this is before the full Herrod system. I must go back and get it done now for comparo. It feels much better now, but still with intermittent sluggish off-the-mark performance, which the Dealer cant seem to fix, and lurching in the box, as if it has to look for 1st.

[Mechan1k]

That's interesting ... I'd like the put the AWD on a dyno as well and get a comparison ... might give it a few more thousand kay under the belt ... but am interested in getting figures for it.