Big shakeup at holden - Page 2

FPV GTHO · 02-02-2012, 12:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobthebilda

But in complete sarcasm, there has to be money in the cruze. Taxpayers put in $149 million (and we kept getting told Holden put in $2 for every taxpayer dollar). $450 million dollars is a big bet to play, if there was never going to be any money in it.

They put in money at a 3:1 ratio, therefore total development was near $600m

FPV GTHO · 02-02-2012, 12:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by z80

I compared a Focus with a Focus, and drawing the inference that the ratio is the ratio is the ratio.

Get it?

Mate...you've never shipped anything have you? It's not that expensive in surface freight terms.

Find me a Falcon made in the US and it will be roughly half the price it is here.

That's my point...we pay way too much for our locally made cars.

I'm sure Ford and GM have been laughing all the way to the bank since our currency rose to parity....and the tidy profits leaving our shores back to the US.

Move over there, accept the lower standard of living and pay, and you can get your cheaper cars.

Bye.

RASER · 02-02-2012, 12:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FPV GTHO

Move over there, accept the lower standard of living and pay, and you can get your cheaper cars.

Bye.

Wont need to, @$1.06 to our dollar we are about to be dumped with 1000's of Chinese made in all shapes and sizes

Most will be old world product gems will follow not to far down the track

phillyc · 02-02-2012, 12:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

They were talking it up that hatches make up a very high perecentage of small car sales, and they were only playing in a small part of that market with the sedan, implying that they would increase sales massively. Yet sales have dropped every month since the hatch was released.

It was running in the top 3 before the hatch came, and hasn't come close since. Just look at the numbers from the last 4 or 5 months, dropped every month.

Toyota Corolla supply was much better and Mitsubishi Lancer had cheap finance and Focus started to find it's feet during those months. Mazda 3 continued to tack up sales too.

I agree GM Holden were talking up sedan vs hatch small car segment. So far not looking good. I give them a few more months before my judgement though.

Joe5619 · 02-02-2012, 12:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by z80

Mate...you've never shipped anything have you? It's not that expensive in surface freight terms.

WRONG!! I'm a cost accoutant working for a major US owned company that 100% imports into Australia from either Hong Kong or USA. And if you think freight is "not much", you're kidding yourself!!!

It is not just the cost of the ship!! The cars need to get to the port in the USA & from the port in AUST, they need to clear customs, they might get held up at customs, they might be outside storage costs.. You also need freight insurance.. But you know all this, don’t you!!

Also Ford USA would not charge Ford Aust cost price (no major companies do). Ford USA wants to make something from the sale to Ford Aust. It would be Ford USA cost price + uplift. So Ford Aust losses out there too, when buying cars from other Ford affiliates around the world.. But you know that too, don’t you!

bobthebilda · 02-02-2012, 01:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

They were 480/day and planning more with Cruze hatch so 400/ day is about 100/day drop.
So what's that a month....still around 9,000 cars a month, boy that sounds a lot...

The car advice figures sounded way too high. The latest NEWS release states they are currently running at 400 per day.

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/s...-1226259558573

If they were to cut it to meet current sales (3000 commodores, 600 utes, 2500 cruzes, 650 local and export caprices and 350 NZ exports) = 7200 in a 21 day month = 342 per day (almost pre GFC one shift production rates). With the current stock they must have, and no suggestion that sales will spark anytime soon, its a safe bet the shifts will resort back to working alternating weeks (either that or the cull will be greater than casuals and temps)

jpd80 · 02-02-2012, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobthebilda

The car advice figures sounded way too high. The latest NEWS release states they are currently running at 400 per day.

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/s...-1226259558573

If they were to cut it to meet current sales (3000 commodores, 600 utes, 2500 cruzes, 650 local and export caprices and 350 NZ exports) = 7200 in a 21 day month = 342 per day (almost pre GFC one shift production rates). With the current stock they must have, and no suggestion that sales will spark anytime soon, its a safe bet the shifts will resort back to working alternating weeks (either that or the cull will be greater than casuals and temps)

Yeah, I'm thinking around 350 to 360/day on a single shift, that way the current 2 x 200/day
shifts can condense to 1 x 360/day shift and keep most of the people, casuals will probably go...

Just heard Mike Deveraux on news, they are seeking global platform to use for next product cycle,
I'm thinking they will axe Zeta after VF plus two years and use a bigger Alpha car after 2016,
the market and costs have changed immensely on Holden and like Ford, they can't afford
to do another regional car, I'm betting they use Holden version of next Cadillac CTS on Alpha...

Holden looked robust with high production numbers but the truth is that costs are killing them.
By right sizing production years ago, Ford start the new year without a stockpile of cars
and if things go to plan, they may even start selling more Falcons and Territorys.

So my bet is Holden and Ford will align funding and product cycle for 2016.
GM will build a car that been designed else where, Ford will either do the same
or use an evolution of RWD Falcon that uses a lot of existing parts modules
to keep prices down, interesting times ahead...

Resurrection · 02-02-2012, 08:27 AM

This news does not surprise me.

Nikked · 02-02-2012, 08:30 AM

I find it funny as soon as you use the words "platform share" poeple assume that it means "rebadge"

A bloke at work told me that the falcon isn't being made...imagine his surprise when i said that its confirmed till 2016, with a new range released....

jpd80 · 02-02-2012, 08:34 AM

January sales of Caprice PPV....92.

**Polyal** · 02-02-2012, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

January sales of Caprice PPV....92.

Ouch

There is a part of me that says "about bloody time" as the way they run that place is all for trying to keep the number 1 spot in hope that the fact alone will continue sales as they brainwash people into thinking what they have is good and they way they go about it is sound; evidently not.

But being around Ford when times where/are tough its not much fun.

In saying that any company that needs to readjust gets rid of temps/contractors first, that in a mean way is the point of them.

I hope this is a kick in the bum GMH need to pull there heads in and stop chasing image and concentrate on sound business decisions. How much the US actually pushed for the PPV for example I dont know, did they have anything else or did they pump quick money into that just to get into the market?

johnydep · 02-02-2012, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

The Cruze hatch absolutely tanked. Sales actually dropped when they released it, can't figure out how they managed that. I know it looks like crap but still.

Its bad people losing their jobs, but the good thing is that maybe the general buying public have now realised just how mediocre the Cruze is compared to its rivals.

About time.

The Cruze is in a different price range to it's rival. Take the Focus as an example; yes it has a better chassis and suspension, but it's also newer and more expensive.

The Cruze is suffering because of it's age, and a short options list. If Holden added the little things, they'd assist their dealers until a new model was released.

The Cruze needs - electric seat/s, climate control, auto dimming rear vision mirror, and sunroof. All the stuff everyone else has on their similar sized models.

phillyc · 02-02-2012, 11:06 AM

On RANT.

The timing of this bad news about GM Holden also stinks for Ford too.

On the VERY same day that Ford release details about the EcoBoost Falcon which has better than Mazda 3 economy this comes out. What are the papers talking about? GM Holden.

The EcoBoost Falcon has been forgotten in all this.

Off RANT.

**Polyal** · 02-02-2012, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phillyc

On RANT.

The timing of this bad news about GM Holden also stinks for Ford too.

On the VERY same day that Ford release details about the EcoBoost Falcon which has better than Mazda 3 economy this comes out. What are the papers talking about? GM Holden.

The EcoBoost Falcon has been forgotten in all this.

Off RANT.

Well true..but...hopefuly someone picks upt he stark contrast between the two. I mean in the last couple of years Ford have invested in TDi, LPI and EB4 to attack the fuel consumption issue....what have GMH done?

2011G6E · 02-02-2012, 11:38 AM

From what the Holden guy said on TV this morning, it sounded like they're just laying off temporary staff that had been put on last year in anticipation of big production numbers they predicted for export and other areas of sales...when that didn't happen, naturally the temps got laid off. He said they're still making virtually the same number of cars, but on one shift, moving the permenant staff from the second shift to the other shift.

Used to happen...on a smaller scale of course...at the soft drink factory I worked at for many years. Warmer weather, sales would increase, you'd put on a bunch of temp workers, and maybe up to a year later you'd have to let them go. It was sad, but that's just how it works in businesses where it can be very up and down over long periods.

johnydep · 02-02-2012, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polyal

Well true..but...hopefuly someone picks upt he stark contrast between the two. I mean in the last couple of years Ford have invested in TDi, LPI and EB4 to attack the fuel consumption issue....what have GMH done?

Last couple of years??? That's not a good point to make. Ford have been playing catch up.

If the bean counters at Ford used some simple research and planning they would have had the Territory fitted out with a Diesel engine in 2007, when the market was screaming for fuel efficient SUV's.
The BA Falcon should of had an injected LPG system, not the old school vapour system.

Both Holden and Ford management have stuffed up over the years, they simply are not listening to their 'potential' customer base.

Joe5619 · 02-02-2012, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnydep

If the bean counters at Ford used some simple research and planning

No offense, but it is not the bean counters job to do market research & product planning!!

**Polyal** · 02-02-2012, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnydep

Last couple of years??? That's not a good point to make. Ford have been playing catch up.

If the bean counters at Ford used some simple research and planning they would have had the Territory fitted out with a Diesel engine in 2007, when the market was screaming for fuel efficient SUV's.
The BA Falcon should of had an injected LPG system, not the old school vapour system.

Both Holden and Ford management have stuffed up over the years, they simply are not listening to their 'potential' customer base.

Mate they knew what to do, they had TDi going in 2006, but change in management means everyone wants to do things their way and not stick to plans. Thats what hurt the Tez. That and cash flow.

Either way Ford have followed through with the lastest round of engines and need to follow it through properly.

johnydep · 02-02-2012, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe5619

No offense, but it is not the bean counters job to do market research & product planning!!

No, they're just in charge of approving what R&D ask for. And if R&D got it wrong? It's still management of the company that stuffed up, which seems to be an on-going process.

I've mentioned before - we had the head start on most countries, and we've dropped the ball and let them overtake us. We have two options now; keep struggling as a domestic manufacturer with handouts, or invest wisely and become a large exporter.

johnydep · 02-02-2012, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polyal

Mate they knew what to do, they had TDi going in 2006, but change in management means everyone wants to do things their way and not stick to plans. Thats what hurt the Tez. That and cash flow.

Either way Ford have followed through with the latest round of engines and need to follow it through properly.

You confirm what I have said; Management stuffed up, Ford are playing catch up.

If we want a viable car industry in this country, the manufacturers and the Government have to get together and work with a long term plan. Stop the short term loans to shore up a few jobs until election time!

Aussies want to support their local manufacturers, but the company needs to offer something they want.

Holden are on the right track - large and small car production. They just need some fine tuning and more exports.

Toyota are also on the right track - our biggest car exporter. However, they look shaky with the ball at the moment.

Ford are on and off that track - they had a viable export product, the Territory, but that boat has sailed. They almost got the production rights of the Focus, but lost it to Thailand.

All the automotive manufactures need to expand, not shrink. Growth can only come with large exports. Large exports can only come with smart and savvy management, at company and Government levels.

bobthebilda · 02-02-2012, 12:36 PM

Single shift it is.

http://www.news.com.au/business/brea...-1226260529590

Brazen · 02-02-2012, 12:38 PM

I think the government should come out with an actual plan with results instead of money being used here and there.

Come out and say we want 40% of cars sold to be locally made or we want to be producing 400,000 cars a year. If they dont have a goal then nothing will ever be achieved.

Once a plan is in place, talk to the car makers. Ask them what do they need to increase production to the levels the industry needs. Do they need to be making a Cruze SUV? Does Ford need to locally produce Ranger? Does Toyota need to make a Rav4 here. What about VW, do they want a Asian Pacific manufactruing hub? Does a temporary "currency alignment" tariff need to be introduced to offset the devastating effects of a high currency?

Continually subsidising cars which do not increase production for the industry is not thinking long term. Should the government be throwing money at Falcon when its only selling 18,000 a year? likewise with Commodore. The industry needs volume to be competitive.

**Polyal** · 02-02-2012, 12:41 PM

Getting the Gov involved is the worst thing they could do...look at all the problems GovCo have with their own mess.

What they do now, by co-investing is pretty much ideal as long as the Gov gets their money back, which whether directly or not I am sure they do.

Fords efforts to make the Falcon adapt are good, but yes the timing is never going to be perfect because the CEO's change to much down here, we really need an Aussie with passion in charge; not a fly by nighter looking for some sparkle in his resume.

Joe5619 · 02-02-2012, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnydep

No, they're just in charge of approving what R&D ask for. And if R&D got it wrong? It's still management of the company that stuffed up, which seems to be an on-going process.

I've mentioned before - we had the head start on most countries, and we've dropped the ball and let them overtake us. We have two options now; keep struggling as a domestic manufacturer with handouts, or invest wisely and become a large exporter.

Unless you know the internal workings of Ford at the time, you can't blame bean counters!!! How do you know R&D even asked for the money?

Joe5619 · 02-02-2012, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnydep

You confirm what I have said; Management stuffed up, Ford are playing catch up.

If we want a viable car industry in this country, the manufacturers and the Government have to get together and work with a long term plan. Stop the short term loans to shore up a few jobs until election time!

Aussies want to support their local manufacturers, but the company needs to offer something they want.

Holden are on the right track - large and small car production. They just need some fine tuning and more exports.

Toyota are also on the right track - our biggest car exporter. However, they look shaky with the ball at the moment.

Ford are on and off that track - they had a viable export product, the Territory, but that boat has sailed. They almost got the production rights of the Focus, but lost it to Thailand.

All the automotive manufactures need to expand, not shrink. Growth can only come with large exports. Large exports can only come with smart and savvy management, at company and Government levels.

Have you seen the dollar?? Exports are not the asnwer. Both Holden's & Toyota's current problems & staff reductions are due to poor exports.. Notice Ford is not in the boat at the moment!!

dddd · 02-02-2012, 12:58 PM

I must admit I find the recent comments over the last few months (on the subject of jobs going overseas ) extremely amusing.

About the only advantage Australian manufacturing had over other countries was cheap power

Rudd brings in the renewable energy policy whereby we must have a certain percentage of our power supplied by renewable energy and that this percentage must increase each year. Most people seam to think, great green energy sounds lovely,however what he didn't tell the people was that green power is approximately ten times more expensive to produce (per kilowatt hour) than coal fired power stations. Has anyone noticed that their power bill's have gone through the roof lately , do you believe that general industry is immune from these same increases

Next he brings in a new set of work place reforms that makes it considerably harder for our companies to compete, yes I realise we get better pay and conditions because of these new work place agreements but is any of us stupid enough to believe their will be no repercussion from all this
I believe Toyota Australia just recently awarded their employees a 13 percent increase (the unions should be proud) then started laying people off.

Then off course we cant forget the biggest change of all the carbon tax
The people that run large companies aren't stupid they know what the carbon tax is going to do to manufacturing cost in Australia, we are just starting to witness the start of a considerable shift in manufacturing off shore.

Of course the unions and the government (one and the same) will blame this loss of jobs entirely on the strong Australian dollar,which naturally isn't helping at this present moment in time, but if you take a look at the history of the Aussie dollar and in particular look at the building US economy its fair to say this strong Aussie dollar wont be here for long, I cant imagine anyone going to the trouble of shifting there company off shore just because of this alone as it would be terribly short term thinking

In the mean time people and the unions will be disgusted with the greedy fat cat companies shifting off shore simply to make more money and blame everyone but them selves

There is an old saying that goes "people get the government they deserve" I never really understood what it meant until the last 2-3 years

Bring back the Hawk ,Keating and Howard years at least they created situations that helped our industry survive as apposed to making things all but impossible for industry to survive ( are well at least the greens will be happy)

DanielXR8 · 02-02-2012, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe5619

Have you seen the dollar?? Exports are not the asnwer. Both Holden's & Toyota's current problems & staff reductions are due to poor exports.. Notice Ford is not in the boat at the moment!!

The dollars value is a government issue as they are fearful of devaluing it.

News about Holden is not good, but given the state of the economy I expect all three will announce bad news this year and quite possibly very bad news for the local car industry. Mining aside everything else in the country is going into a recession.

johnydep · 02-02-2012, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe5619

Unless you know the internal workings of Ford at the time, you can't blame bean counters!!! How do you know R&D even asked for the money?

It was common knowledge in the automotive media. The diesel Territory was dropped due to funding, and the Turbo I6 put in to cover the hole.

johnydep · 02-02-2012, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanielXR8

The dollars value is a government issue as they are fearful of devaluing it.

News about Holden is not good, but given the state of the economy I expect all three will announce bad news this year and quite possibly very bad news for the local car industry. Mining aside everything else in the country is going into a recession.

Sadly, it looks that way.

**Polyal** · 02-02-2012, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanielXR8

The dollars value is a government issue as they are fearful of devaluing it.

News about Holden is not good, but given the state of the economy I expect all three will announce bad news this year and quite possibly very bad news for the local car industry. Mining aside everything else in the country is going into a recession.

Exactly..if it wasnt for mining we would be screwed.