4cyl Falcon - Who will buy one? - Page 4

naddis01 · 30-12-2011, 11:32 PM

Is there a typo on the Ford website? It lists Mondeo Zetec at 1682kg. Should it be 1582kg?

http://www.ford.com.au/servlet/Satel...apper&site=FOA

BadMax · 30-12-2011, 11:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevefreestyle

500+ NM - and with engine braking unaffected by wastegate blow-off?? I seriously doubt that !!!

Is it possible you don't have a great knowledge or first hadn experince with turbo charged engines?

Quote:

Originally Posted by eb2monty

Fleets and the average person doesn't care about RWD or V8s. I learnt that when a guy I work with had a Holden V8 supercar t shirt. Always goes to the races. He drives a Camry. Enough said.

Percisely! There are two aspect to consider. First being government fleet which I believe QLD now has a 4 cylinder only policy and rental fleets, these make up the biggest chunk of new car sales, not mum and dads and certainly not enthusiasts such as here.
Secondly, anyone driven a 4 cylinder Camry? Seem to sell fairly well...

Bossxr8 · 31-12-2011, 12:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by burnz

not interested in miss info either..

just so you know the base mondi is around 1300kg..

That would make the Mondeo lighter than the Focus.

Till_Lind · 31-12-2011, 01:04 AM

People that don't want to pay such crazy amounts for rego. might buy one.

Bossxr8 · 31-12-2011, 01:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Till_Lind

People that don't want to pay such crazy amounts for rego. might buy one.

Only applies to a few states though.

In Vic rego cost does not change for engine type.

jpd80 · 31-12-2011, 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by burnz

not interested in miss info either..

just so you know the base mondi is around 1300kg..

1300 kg is the weight of a Focus, All Mondeos sold in Australia are over 1500 Kg

OK, seeing as I have to prove water is wet, I will post links/ references for my info:

1) The lightest Mondeo at 1435 kg is UK only stripper with 1.6 petrol engine....LINK

Kerb weights:
Mondeo LX 1532 kg, (FoA website)
Zetec EB 1582 Kg (FoA website)
EB XT 1646 Kg (recent go auto article, Ford announced 60 kg weight reduction for Falcon Ecoboost)

With correct figures we can see just how close Falcon comes to Mondeo:

Mondeo 240 ps/179 Kw Ecoboost 0-100 kph in 7.5 seconds, Combined 7.9 l/100 km...LINK

Mondeo 200 ps/149 kw Ecoboost 0-100 kph in 7.9 seconds, Combined 7.7 l/100 km...LINK

Falcon (179 Kw?) Ecoboost 0-100 kph in 7.2-7.6 seconds, approx 8.0 l/100 km
(based on recent 1 up and 2 up testing and Ford estimates on fuel economy)

burnz · 31-12-2011, 08:46 AM

falcon list weight ford website.
1704~1798...that is the weight range

mondi 1505~1636

jpd80 · 31-12-2011, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by burnz

falcon list weight ford website.
1704~1798...that is the weight range

mondi 1505~1636

Ford is on record as saying Ecoboost Falcon is 60 Kg lighter.

EB Falcon is 1646 Kg,
Zetec Mondeo is 1582 Kg

I'm no expert but that's roughly a passenger weight difference...

burnz · 31-12-2011, 08:58 AM

ok im just saying mid spec cars say XR6 is more the bread and butter car than the XT.

mondi weight should be of the 2.0 petrol engine weight not the heavier diesel version..

bread and butter, apple with apples.

jpd80 · 31-12-2011, 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by burnz

ok im just saying mid spec cars say XR6 is more the bread and butter car than the XT.

mondi weight should be of the 2.0 petrol engine weight not the heavier diesel version..

bread and butter, apple with apples.

And that's whay i quote Zetec hatch - it's an EB mondeo and is 1582 Kg...get it?

Ford is not putting an Ecoboost into an XR6 but they are going into G series and XT.

You're not going to get apples with apples because Ford is smart enough not to have duplicate products...

Now do you see why EB Mondeo is not the same as EB Falcon?

So to answer your original question about choosing an EB Mondeo over an EB Falcon,
the two are different, Falcon is a sedan with different rim levels and auto box,
while the Mondeo is a hatch with FWD and Powershift box. - sorry no apples with apples there...

burnz · 31-12-2011, 09:11 AM

what is the weight of a G6E??
how many XT does ford sell?

your telling me that ford sell more stripped out XT's than mid spec XR6/G6E
EB4 sales will be around the mid spec level if you go by current trends.

so to say G4E will sell more than EB4XT..get my point.

prydey · 31-12-2011, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by burnz

ok im just saying mid spec cars say XR6 is more the bread and butter car than the XT.

mondi weight should be of the 2.0 petrol engine weight not the heavier diesel version..

bread and butter, apple with apples.

pointless using xr6 weight as ecoboost isn't available on xr6. also pointless comparing with the lightest mondeo as the ecoboost mondeo IS the zetec hatch.

edit - looks like i'm a bit slow on the draw.

Quote:

Originally Posted by naddis01

Is there a typo on the Ford website? It lists Mondeo Zetec at 1682kg. Should it be 1582kg?

http://www.ford.com.au/servlet/Satel... pper&site=FOA

not sure where jpd is getting his figures from but website def says 1682 for ecoboost mondeo.

it also has 8L/100km for combined fuel economy with 11 urban and 6.3 for extra urban.

this is for 149kw version which is the only version on sale here.

jpd80 · 31-12-2011, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by burnz

what is the weight of a G6E??
how many XT does ford sell?

your telling me that ford sell more stripped out XT's than mid spec XR6/G6E
EB4 sales will be around the mid spec level if you go by current trends.

so to say G4E will sell more than EB4XT..get my point.

Sigh, you just don't get it...

XT is no longer a stripped out Falcon, it's no longer an ugly duckling.
G series and XT are perfect vehicles for Ecoboost because they don't
canabalize sales from XR6, so that's why Ford is using those models.

This is not about replacing products, it's about increasing them by adding new buyers.

And for the record, XT, XR6, G6 and G6E are all very close in weight,
being that they are trim variations on the same basic car.....

jpd80 · 31-12-2011, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prydey

pointless using xr6 weight as ecoboost isn't available on xr6. also pointless comparing with the lightest mondeo as the ecoboost mondeo IS the zetec hatch.

edit - looks like i'm a bit slow on the draw.

not sure where jpd is getting his figures from but website def says 1682 for ecoboost mondeo.

it also has 8L/100km for combined fuel economy with 11 urban and 6.3 for extra urban.

this is for 149kw version which is the only version on sale here.

I'm using a mix of Ford UK figures and FoA web site.
If you have a look at FoA's website and bring up Mondeo weights,
it's pretty obvious the 1682 Kg figure is a typo and should be 1582

All I'm saying is that it appears that any difference in weight between Mondeo and Falcon
doesn't seem to be changing the performance and fuel economy figures between the two.
That is a pleasing sign, as is the fact that the Falcon and Mondeo are different products,
different enough in the eyes of genuine buyers so as not to be conflicting...

4VCLEVO · 31-12-2011, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carby

So would you consider an LPGi Falcon - it has cheaper running costs and more power and Torque ?

No, wife wont have a gas powered car as a family member had a gas tank blow up and she lost her kids in the explosion.

prydey · 31-12-2011, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

All I'm saying is that it appears that any difference in weight between Mondeo and Falcon
doesn't seem to be changing the performance and fuel economy figures

they get the power to the road in pretty different ways i notice. EB falcon will use zf 6sp and i assume same ratio's as 6cyl? these are a fair bit different to the 6sp ratio's in the mondeo not to mention mondeo has a variable diff ratio by the looks.

i'd say the extra 30kw advantage the EB falcon will have will overcome the slight weight disadvantage which is why performance and economy would appear about par.

ford don't just chuck an engine in and hope for the best. too many people here think ford just pluck things out of thin air without putting any thought into it at all.

jpd80 · 31-12-2011, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prydey

they get the power to the road in pretty different ways i notice. EB falcon will use zf 6sp and i assume same ratio's as 6cyl? these are a fair bit different to the 6sp ratio's in the mondeo not to mention mondeo has a variable diff ratio by the looks.

i'd say the extra 30kw advantage the EB falcon will have will overcome the slight weight disadvantage which is why performance and economy would appear about par.

ford don't just chuck an engine in and hope for the best. too many people here think ford just pluck things out of thin air without putting any thought into it at all.

All the 60 kg weight savings have come from the lighter engine and transmission,
the rugged Falcon frame is still there so I wonder what it will tow....
Or, just supposing Ford was to lighten the rest of the frame, I bet they could equal Mondeo's weight

LOL, Goauto are saying Ecoboost Falcon is a full second quicker than the Omega Commodore...ouch.

au2000 · 31-12-2011, 10:22 AM

vic gov may start buying a fair few as alot of the departments have a 4 cylinder policy.... once that started the ones without the exemption all reverted to hybrids & camrys instead of falcons & commodores...

Rodge · 31-12-2011, 10:36 AM

Nobody has mentioned the huge amount of Technology in the Ecoboost Mondeo Titanium that's missing from even a G6E 4 pot Falcon, e.g. adaptive cruise control, blind spot assist, lane departure warning, cornering headlights, forward collision warning e.t.c. Ford N.Z. website has the Mondeo Titanium Ecoboost listed at 1569 kg's. There's also the diesel version with 5.6 litres per 100 km's for those really serious about fuel efficiency.

Personally notwithstanding the FWD v RWD debate, I would find the technology in a car like the Mondeo Titanium the more attractive proposition and lets not forget there's an all new Mondeo due out in late 2012, probably with even more kit. If I was buying is this segment I'd keep my powder dry and have a look at the new Mondeo.

prydey · 31-12-2011, 10:54 AM

mondeo tempts me to look at it, but when i see the interior, i just couldn't bring myself to buy one, regardless of the kit it comes with. personally i like my falcon interior better. seats and cloth in mondeo look like they were made in 1990. i also prefer the console layout of the falcon.

4stanger · 31-12-2011, 10:56 AM

Who will buy one?
Private consumers looking at Camrys, a large 4 cyl sedan.
Would most of these type of buyers pay the extra couple of thousand for the extra power, room and RWD? I don't think so.

Government fleets should, IF the EB Falcon is competitive with the Camry on price.

naddis01 · 31-12-2011, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by burnz

what is the weight of a G6E??
how many XT does ford sell?

your telling me that ford sell more stripped out XT's than mid spec XR6/G6E
EB4 sales will be around the mid spec level if you go by current trends.

so to say G4E will sell more than EB4XT..get my point.

They don't have the weight of a petrol G6E on the Ford website but they do for EcoLpi so we can estimate.

LPG XT is 53kg heavier than the petrol version. So that would make a petrol G6 about 1729kg and the G6E about 1745kg. So if the reported 60kg weight reduction for Ecoboost is consistent across the range that would make the XT about 1644kg, the G6 about 1669kg and the G6E about 1685kg.

So comparing to Mondeo Zetec Ecoboost there would be around 62kg to 103kg difference. Or about one passenger. But then if you want to nit pick you need to add a few more kg of fuel to the Mondeo weight as its specs don't include a full tank of fuel. So that would bring the weight difference back to double digits.

jpd80 · 31-12-2011, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rodge

Nobody has mentioned the huge amount of Technology in the Ecoboost Mondeo Titanium that's missing from even a G6E 4 pot Falcon, e.g. adaptive cruise control, blind spot assist, lane departure warning, cornering headlights, forward collision warning e.t.c. Ford N.Z. website has the Mondeo Titanium Ecoboost listed at 1569 kg's. There's also the diesel version with 5.6 litres per 100 km's for those really serious about fuel efficiency.

While most Ford UK vehicle prices transpose and convert to Australian dollars on the road..
The one big glaring anomaly is Titanium Mondeo at around £22,000 which
should equate to around AUS$36,000 but no Ford Australia puts it out at $47,000
So tell me, whay is it that the high tech Titanium Focus isn't selling in greater numbers,
is it the $47,000 price tag or that buyers are not especially looking for those features yet.

Quote:

Personally notwithstanding the FWD v RWD debate, I would find the technology in a car like the Mondeo Titanium the more attractive proposition and lets not forget there's an all new Mondeo due out in late 2012, probably with even more kit. If I was buying is this segment I'd keep my powder dry and have a look at the new Mondeo.

It's not about FWD vs RWD, Falcon is just a better overall package for our market
and FoA is showing that everything done to Mondeo can be done with Falcon, it just
takes money, all the features you list will eventually be standard fitment to lower models
in Mondeo and Falcon as well as Focus....it may take several years but they will be there..

That Ford is prepared to sell Mondeo alongside Falcon says they are
confident that the two complement each other more than compete..

Oh, next Mondeo on CD4 will be mid to late 2013 in Europe, don't expect to see it before then.

z80 · 31-12-2011, 12:01 PM

I reckon the 4 cyl RWD falcon will become a short lived orphan.

The problem with heavy 4 cyl cars in a fleet pool is that people drive them much harder and so use more fuel, often than a larger engined car in the same series.

The 4 cyl starfire commodore could get 35 mpg on tests, but in actual fleet driving they managed about 20....

People just revved them more to get anywhere around town.

At 149kw for the ecoboost its a net 30%+ reduction in overall power at the wheels is what we are talking about is it not?

prydey · 31-12-2011, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by z80

I reckon the 4 cyl RWD falcon will become a short lived orphan.

The problem with heavy 4 cyl cars in a fleet pool is that people drive them much harder and so use more fuel, often than a larger engined car in the same series.

The 4 cyl starfire commodore could get 35 mpg on tests, but in actual fleet driving they managed about 20....

People just revved them more to get anywhere around town.

At 149kw for the ecoboost its a net 30%+ reduction in overall power at the wheels is what we are talking about is it not?

you're not following along very well. 149kw is the mondeo version. falcon will get a much higher state of tune, probably around 170-180kw.

it will be similar power and weight to AU falcon.

Simple6 · 31-12-2011, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by z80

At 149kw for the ecoboost its a net 30%+ reduction in overall power at the wheels is what we are talking about is it not?

Maybe I missed something in this thread but I've only heard that the Falcon Ecoboost will have around 170+kw, not as low as 149kw.

The AU Falcon had up to 172kw (for VCT XR6) and weighed in at around 1550-1600kgs which isn't much less than what we expect the EcoBoost Falcon to be.

So in reality it's not that bad! I imagine it would be similar to be BA in terms of performance - and for everyday cruising that's perfectly acceptable.

EDIT - Ah prydey beat me to it! Too long trawling Falcon Facts for numbers!

Bossxr8 · 31-12-2011, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

All the 60 kg weight savings have come from the lighter engine and transmission,
the rugged Falcon frame is still there so I wonder what it will tow....
Or, just supposing Ford was to lighten the rest of the frame, I bet they could equal Mondeo's weight

LOL, Goauto are saying Ecoboost Falcon is a full second quicker than the Omega Commodore...ouch.

I'm pretty sure they say the towing capacity is 1600kg for Ecoboost 4, you can't get the heavy duty 2300kg towing pack on it, but you can on the I6.

jpd80 · 31-12-2011, 12:37 PM

Great Ford presentation on Ecoboost future developments - LINK

Bossxr8 · 31-12-2011, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by z80

I reckon the 4 cyl RWD falcon will become a short lived orphan.

The problem with heavy 4 cyl cars in a fleet pool is that people drive them much harder and so use more fuel, often than a larger engined car in the same series.

The 4 cyl starfire commodore could get 35 mpg on tests, but in actual fleet driving they managed about 20....

People just revved them more to get anywhere around town.

At 149kw for the ecoboost its a net 30%+ reduction in overall power at the wheels is what we are talking about is it not?

It will be 179 kw as a minimum. And it makes peak torque of at least 340-360nm as a guess at something like 1800 rpm, so it won't need to be revved hard.

It actually makes peak torque at around half the revs it does in the I6 Falcon.

BadMax · 31-12-2011, 12:53 PM

I also heard that it will outrun a SIDI 3lt V6 whilst using less fuel.