September VFACTS

[greenfoam]

I still don't know where all these Hilux's are, there must be millions of them out in some mine somewhere

[MrZ]

Originally Posted by greenfoam

I still don't know where all these Hilux's are, there must be millions of them out in some mine somewhere

Just how long do mine vehicles last for? Because with the number of Hiluxes being sold, it seems they're being replaced very often?

[zilo]

Originally Posted by jpd80

But Ford production isn't 1,000/mth, it's still up around 2600/mth

I see your point but...

I did say "Falcon" in my comparison.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Ugg

I see your point but...

I did say "Falcon" in my comparison.

yes, but jpd's point was the falcon platform is selling nearly triple what the 380 platform was selling.

[Joe5619]

Originally Posted by Ugg

I see your point but...

I did say "Falcon" in my comparison.

I'll play.. If you are talking Falcon then it is actually approx 1,500 per month, becuase there is a Falcon Sedan & Falcon ute on sales!!!

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Ugg

I see your point but...

I did say "Falcon" in my comparison.

And IF the Falcon sedan was the only product at Broadmeadows and Geelong Engine, I would agree..

Tonsley Park is a cheap shot the press likes to throw to score easy points when running down Ford and Broadmeadows

[zilo]

Originally Posted by jpd80

And IF the Falcon sedan was the only product at Broadmeadows and Geelong Engine, I would agree..

Tonsley Park is a cheap shot the press likes to throw to score easy points when running down Ford and Broadmeadows

I agree with you mate, but one can't help but notice that the aussie public is staying away from large engined locally produced cars, regardless of the quality or price etc...and that was my underlying point.

[FPV GTHO]

On the flip side, the development costs needing recovery are not the same and not that simple either.

Mitsubishi were for all intent building a global car locally, although there was still several hundred million dollars spent on upgrading the plant and some local modifications.

Ford are building 3 similar vehicles, but they aren't simply off the same singular platform. Falcon ute still has the back end from '99 and Territory is not technically on Falcons platform, Ford simply had a judicial use of the local parts bin. Nevertheless whilst the 2004 development costs were substantial, the most recent are quite trim.

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by Ugg

I agree with you mate, but one can't help but notice that the aussie public is staying away from large engined locally produced cars, regardless of the quality or price etc...and that was my underlying point.

This isnt a trend that is isolated to Australia, it's a global trend that has increased with the availability of more product choice and of course SUV's.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Ugg

I agree with you mate, but one can't help but notice that the aussie public is staying away from large engined locally produced cars, regardless of the quality or price etc...and that was my underlying point.

The majority of die back has actually come from lost fleet business, EcoLPI has not sparked business like anticipated...
I would put to you and others here that Falcon's private sales have never really been that high..

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by Ugg

I agree with you mate, but one can't help but notice that the aussie public is staying away from large engined locally produced cars, regardless of the quality or price etc...and that was my underlying point.

The large cars have priced themselves out of the market, they shouldn't cost as much as a AWD SUV, but they do. Whether its because of costs, or arrogance or sheer incompetence the fact is large cars have continued on their merry way in terms of pricing without taking into effect the seismic changes in the market around them.

Families have massive mortgages, most people would love to walk into a dealer and buy a brand new Commodore or Falcon (honestly!)- but these 40 grand cars are pure luxuries for most people and fleets. Hence you see 3500 Hyundais i30s being sold last month and the Mazda 3 as a top seller.

[zilo]

Originally Posted by jpd80

The majority of die back has actually come from lost fleet business, EcoLPI has not sparked business like anticipated...
I would put to you and others here that Falcon's private sales have never really been that high..

Don't forget that most of the private market for Gm and Ford has been in ex govt and fleet hand me downs to Mr and Mrs Average.

That is called "resale" i think?

What happens when mums and dads don't buy the big ex fleet cars? A fleet manager has to factor in fleet changeover pricing.

Just a thought....

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Brazen

The large cars have priced themselves out of the market, they shouldn't cost as much as a AWD SUV, but they do. Whether its because of costs, or arrogance or sheer incompetence the fact is large cars have continued on their merry way in terms of pricing without taking into effect the seismic changes in the market around them.

I'm sorry but I think your first statement is incorrect, Falcon and Commodore have never been so affordable,
the massive discounts these days have effectively kept prices flat and similar to what was being charged ten years ago..

What has changed is the buyer preference for SUVs that rival large sedans on interior room and better space utility....

All the discounting in the world is useless if the majority of past buyers have effectively moved on to SUV,
the best option open to Ford is follow the trend with territory and other SUVs and hopefully cash in on those products.

[stang65]

I think it really boils down to small cars are cheaper and SUV`s are more pratical and are the in thing at present. We have an Xr turbo and a Terry the best of both worlds. The missus loves driving my turbo and I enjoy driving her Terry (feels more relaxing to drive when I just want to take it easy or go to bunnings).

[phillyc]

Originally Posted by Brazen

Want sales ? Just make this already

image

I'd buy it! As per what most have said, they would love a car based dual cab not a body on chassis light commercial derived dual cab.

Would you continue to call it a "Territory" though?

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by jpd80

I'm sorry but I think your first statement is incorrect, Falcon and Commodore have never been so affordable,
the massive discounts these days have effectively kept prices flat and similar to what was being charged ten years ago..

What has changed is the buyer preference for SUVs that rival large sedans on interior room and better space utility....

All the discounting in the world is useless if the majority of past buyers have effectively moved on to SUV,
the best option open to Ford is follow the trend with territory and other SUVs and hopefully cash in on those products.

Frankly I couldnt really care about an inflation-linked priced adjusted view of the nineties, in 2012 the market is very different place.

The SUV argument is valid but is often a cop-out. The biggest selling vehicles on the market are not SUVs. Mazda 3, Corolla, i30, Cruze, Commodore, Lancer - not a SUV amongst them and these are basically in the top 10 every month. In fact there is not a single SUV in the top 10 year to date, so you have not automatically lost if you are not a SUV.

Look at the average small sedan - the biggest selling vehicle segment in Australia and compare it to the base Ford Falcon.

Where does the Falcon win?
More space,
more power,
more torque,
more refined,
more comfortable,
more features,

Where does the smaller car win?
cheaper price
more fuel efficent


So why isnt Falcon selling as much as Mazda 3 or Corolla, or Cruze, or Lancer, or Focus etc? Well Ford brought out Ecoboost and has EcoLPI and sales have not increased at all so fuel efficency isnt really the problem.

The remaining factor is ding ding ding PRICE.

Price is killing Falcon in TODAY'S market. Sure SUVs have taken sedan sales - but they often offer a much better value component.

Large cars being competitive with inflation or wages growth just doesnt cut it. They need to be competitve with the market. The large sedan prices belong lower down in the pricing ladder - not currently mixing it with much better value diesel AWD 7 seater SUVs.

Remember the manufacturing costs of making a small sedan are not much less than the costs of making a large sedan. Focus at 20 grand and Falcon at 38 grand is a joke, the difference should be a lot smaller.

[Windsor220]

Originally Posted by Brazen

Where does the Falcon win?
More space,
more power,
more torque,
more refined,
more comfortable,
more features,

Where does the smaller car win?
cheaper price
more fuel efficent

The Falcon only wins with interior space, power and torque. Smaller cars have as much if not more features, are just as comfortable and would be more reliable to from what I've seen. Add to that the cheaper price, fuel efficiency and smaller exterior dimensions and its an easy win for small cars.

[BHDOGS]

features and price all we ever hear about these days how much **** they can pack into a small car for as little money people have to pay as possible there is no loyalty anymore its just every man for himself and its sad

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Brazen

Frankly I couldnt really care about an inflation-linked priced adjusted view of the nineties, in 2012 the market is very different place.

The SUV argument is valid but is often a cop-out. The biggest selling vehicles on the market are not SUVs. Mazda 3, Corolla, i30, Cruze, Commodore, Lancer - not a SUV amongst them and these are basically in the top 10 every month. In fact there is not a single SUV in the top 10 year to date, so you have not automatically lost if you are not a SUV.

I was talking specifically about large sedans and the corresponding increase in medium-large SUVs,
there is undeniable evidence that buyers have switched to other vehicles even though large sedans are
arguably more affordable than they were ten years ago.

Even though small cars are the sales leading segment, they only account for
around 25% of total market sales, lights are about 15%, mids are around 8%
and large car down to or below 6%. So just approx 55% of vehicles sold are carss.

Turn that figure around and you see that approx. 45% of vehicles sold are trucks and SUVs, so using
those top ten monthly sales figures can give a distorted view of how the market is really trending..

And to answer the underlying question, no manufacturer is going to offer a large car
for a few thousand more a than a small car. None of the Imports do so it's unreasonable
to expect Ford and GM to do that, it's actually better to sell 1,000 car at an average of $40K
than it is to sell 4,000 at an average of $22,000, that extra 3,000 is seen as a waste of resources.

[csv8]

Wouldn't we all like to live in America..where car prices are realistic. But, they have the population , low wages etc.etc... It would be interesting to findout how much a Falcon costs to build, before company profit etc is added...If Ford can sell an XR6 for $36k drive away and the RRP is $45k..Ford must be making a profit on $36k ???? or not..if they are, then, that shows how over priced the Falcon is......

[Windsor220]

Originally Posted by csv8

Wouldn't we all like to live in America..where car prices are realistic. But, they have the population , low wages etc.etc... It would be interesting to findout how much a Falcon costs to build, before company profit etc is added...If Ford can sell an XR6 for $36k drive away and the RRP is $45k..Ford must be making a profit on $36k ???? or not..if they are, then, that shows how over priced the Falcon is......

RRP on an XR6 is $39k.

[zilo]

How about a Mercedes for the price of a Territory?

Brand new of course?

http://www.mbzlongbeach.com/vehicle/...z/m-class/2012


$35k buys a lot of car in other parts of the world....

http://www.mbzlongbeach.com/vehicle/...z/c-class/2013

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by Windsor220

The Falcon only wins with interior space, power and torque. Smaller cars have as much if not more features, are just as comfortable and would be more reliable to from what I've seen. Add to that the cheaper price, fuel efficiency and smaller exterior dimensions and its an easy win for small cars.

Features this, features that.

It has already been pointed out in this thread that the top seller for September has only received bluetooth connectivity as standard just now - something the FG has had standard since FGII but in reality probably for a good 18 months before that - in the base XT spec.

[Joe5619]

Originally Posted by csv8

Wouldn't we all like to live in America..where car prices are realistic. But, they have the population , low wages etc.etc... It would be interesting to findout how much a Falcon costs to build, before company profit etc is added...If Ford can sell an XR6 for $36k drive away and the RRP is $45k..Ford must be making a profit on $36k ???? or not..if they are, then, that shows how over priced the Falcon is......

No-one (unless you work in the Finance department at Ford) really knows the answer to that. But let’s just say, last year Ford run XR6 pricing at 36K or less all year & made their biggest loss ever (Yes I know there were other reasons that help make the loss, but even without those a breakeven result is not a great result either). This year the have run with the XR6 pricing at 38K all year (Yes I know there are cheaper ones on carsales.com.au, but these pricing are not Ford pushed & are only on a few dozen cars), so we will see what happens with the results at the end of this financial year?

What we also need to understand is the R&D of the Falcon is now spread across much less vehicles than in the past, so the actual cost to make the Falcon PER UNIT would have gone up greatly over the last 10 years, but the pricing of the car at retail has not.

[dimka100]

The reality is that even at 36K drive away nobody wants to buy the Falcon anymore, most sales go to large fleets that get these cars at around 30K (base G6/XR6s) ...

The funny thing is that when you look at all the other cars that are available in the 35k - 40k price bracket its not hard to see why people are no longer willing to pay for the Falcons.

And BTW 35K gets you a nice brand new 328 BMW in the states, so when you put that in perspective you really realise how un-competitive the Falcon has become ... if the import car companies were not as greedy and would actually charge realistic prices for their products in Australia, Ford would not even sell a single Falcon at the current prices.

[prydey]

comparing prices in a country of 20mil to a country of 200mil (give or take) is all kinds of

how about you take a pay cut so your industry can compete with offshore companies! how many people are prepared to do that??

the local cars are the price they are because included in the cost to manufacture in this country is all the wages and privileges that all the workers want. people think that as inflation rises, so should wages and before you know it you have production line workers on close to $100k/yr.

then people whinge about the price of products in this country.


as for RRP's - i'm pretty sure they are mainly for fleets. fleet discounts are based on RRP, not the $36k-$38k sale price.

as for features - fg has been out since 2008 with climate, power windows all round, cruise, icc etc. how do the small cars compare in base trim?

people often use the mondeo as an example but it has never outsold falcon, even though its cheaper and has more features apparently.

there are those who will continue to bag the falcon (in the guise of constructive criticism or frustration because they love the brand so much) until the day they die, or the day it dies.

VFACTS - AFF's 'time of the month'

[phillyc]

Originally Posted by dimka100

And BTW 35K gets you a nice brand new 328 BMW in the states, so when you put that in perspective you really realise how un-competitive the Falcon has become ... if the import car companies were not as greedy and would actually charge realistic prices for their products in Australia, Ford would not even sell a single Falcon at the current prices.

This whole argument of what costs what in the US is flawed. I'm not saying that at the higher end like Porsche / Ferrari etc there isn't is a massive distortion. There is. Several reasons for it though. There is a much bigger market. The volumes are hugely differen for individual models. The average US workers earns far less than an Australian worker too. According to National Average Wage Index it was $41,673 USD in 2010. http://www.ssa.gov/oact/cola/AWI.html

The Australian average wage is $69,165 AUD in 2011.
http://www.emigratetoaustralia.org/a...australia.html

Allow for currency at $1.04 USD to $1.00 AUD and the yanks get $40,070 AUD with a 1 year difference in calender years measure.

That $35k USD BMW 328 becomes 44 weeks worked for a US citizen. 25 weeks for an Aussie worker at their prices and our pay rates (which is flawed).

The 2012 BMW 328i F30 is $64.9k AUD here.
http://www.redbook.com.au/cars/resea...&Ridx=0&eapi=2
At our wages of $69,165pa it becomes 48.8 weeks worked for an Aussie worker buying it here in Australia.

Based on that metric it is 10% overpriced. Factor in sales volumes and transport costs etc.

Enough of the crap comparisons.

[phillyc]

Originally Posted by prydey

comparing prices in a country of 22mil to a country of 300mil (give or take) is all kinds of

how about you take a pay cut so your industry can compete with offshore companies! how many people are prepared to do that??

the local cars are the price they are because included in the cost to manufacture in this country is all the wages and privileges that all the workers want. people think that as inflation rises, so should wages and before you know it you have production line workers on close to $100k/yr.

then people whinge about the price of products in this country.


as for RRP's - i'm pretty sure they are mainly for fleets. fleet discounts are based on RRP, not the $36k-$38k sale price.

as for features - fg has been out since 2008 with climate, power windows all round, cruise, icc etc. how do the small cars compare in base trim?
people often use the mondeo as an example but it has never outsold falcon, even though its cheaper and has more features apparently.

there are those who will continue to bag the falcon (in the guise of constructive criticism or frustration because they love the brand so much) until the day they die, or the day it dies.

VFACTS - AFF's 'time of the month'

You beat me to the reply. Some just repeat the same old crap, month after month. Yep, it's that time of the month again. VFACTS time...

[mik]

i don`t think it is so easy to compare country to country, looking at wages is only a part of the argument, the percentage of population for percentage x disposable income is also a big consideration(not forgetting the break up of those in the lower and higher wage bracket).
and also we should be looking at how much it cost`s to build a hyundai or ssangyong ,Bmw,etc,etc, and regardless of how the pollies keep telling us how good we have in Oz, it`s still not cheap to do business here.

[stang65]

Originally Posted by phillyc

This whole argument of what costs what in the US is flawed. I'm not saying that at the higher end like Porsche / Ferrari etc there isn't is a massive distortion. There is. Several reasons for it though. There is a much bigger market. The volumes are hugely differen for individual models. The average US workers earns far less than an Australian worker too. According to National Average Wage Index it was $41,673 USD in 2010. http://www.ssa.gov/oact/cola/AWI.html

The Australian average wage is $69,165 AUD in 2011.
http://www.emigratetoaustralia.org/a...australia.html

Allow for currency at $1.04 USD to $1.00 AUD and the yanks get $40,070 AUD with a 1 year difference in calender years measure.

That $35k USD BMW 328 becomes 44 weeks worked for a US citizen. 25 weeks for an Aussie worker at their prices and our pay rates (which is flawed).

The 2012 BMW 328i F30 is $64.9k AUD here.
http://www.redbook.com.au/cars/resea...&Ridx=0&eapi=2
At our wages of $69,165pa it becomes 48.8 weeks worked for an Aussie worker buying it here in Australia.

Based on that metric it is 10% overpriced. Factor in sales volumes and transport costs etc.

Enough of the crap comparisons.

I think Phillyc`s post should be pinned as this is what all these people who keep going on about why cars are dearer in Australia can`t get through there thick heads.