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Old 18-03-2018, 12:01 AM   #1
ac17
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Default Mondeo MC TDCI - Shudder in 1st gear & Reverse, and rough changes in lower gears

Hi all,
I have a 2011 MC Mondeo with 150K on the clock. I have driven it for about 25K.

It is shuddering considerably in 1st gear (and in reverse). It is worse when going really slow or driving on an incline. It's been getting progressively worse.

The the lower gear changes can also be a bit jerky (whereas when at speed, the gear changes are silky smooth).

I had a mate look at it and he reckons the transmission fluid is dirty - But this doesn't make sense as it has had its transmission serviced at the specified intervals and it was last serviced just before I bought at at 125K (I rang the dealer service center and checked).

If I put it into Manual mode and take off in 2nd gear, there is no shuddering typical of 1st gear or reverse.

I am wondering what it is:
- is it the clutch?
- is my transmission f'd?
- is it a faulty sensor?

Any recommendations for where to take it to get looked at in Sydney?

Thanks in advance.
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Old 18-03-2018, 02:13 AM   #2
Mondaveo
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Default Re: Mondeo MC TDCI - Shudder in 1st gear & Reverse, and rough changes in lower gears

Shuddering in a DCT generally indicates incorrect clutch friction (outside what the computer expects or can calibrate for). It might be your clutches have degraded, or it might be your transmission fluid is bad (as this has a big influence on the friction in the wet DCT in Mondeo), or it might even be a sensor (as the whole thing is computer controlled).

Two avenues I would start down:
1) Get an OBDII scanner so you can read data from the car. Faulty sensors or abnormal operation should log a diagnostic trouble code (DTC).
2) Check your transmission fluid for quality and quantity. If the fluid is the wrong type or the gearbox is filled to the wrong level, it won't work properly. It sounds like this is what your mechanically-minded mate has already looked into for you.

Rondeo's DCT fluid change write-up: https://fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=11442105
My thread of data-logging and DTCs: https://fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=11452297

Based on your description I would think the prime suspect is the transmission fluid. It has the job of simultaneously cooling, lubricating, and also suspending material worn off the clutches. It requires a very specialised fluid and is very important it's changed at the correct interval.

It wouldn't be unusual for the fluid to look 'dirty' (since it collects all the junk from normal wear) but I can't say what's a 'normal' dirty, except at some point the debris in your fluid would indicate a change is overdue, or your clutches are stuffed. Definitely chase up that prior service and confirm what they used in your gearbox. I'd suspect it hasn't been done or they used the wrong stuff. If you're comfortable with putting in a little money, consider changing the fluid early and see if it makes a difference.

Unfortunately I don't know any mechanics in Sydney, but if you were in Canberra I have dealt with a top-notch shop that I could recommend for you.
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Old 18-03-2018, 08:31 AM   #3
ac17
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Default Re: Mondeo MC TDCI - Shudder in 1st gear & Reverse, and rough changes in lower gears

Thanks mate - Could you please post details of the guys in Canberra - I will contact them and they may be able to recommend someone in Syd.

Cheers.
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Old 18-03-2018, 08:56 AM   #4
rondeo
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Default Re: Mondeo MC TDCI - Shudder in 1st gear & Reverse, and rough changes in lower gears

If the shuddering is worse driving on an incline, one possible cause might be incorrect fluid level.

Checking the level is complicated, and involves using fresh fluid (whether or not the level is incorrect).
The filler plug has to be removed and either the air box removed or a bent tube used to pour fluid in (whether or not the level is incorrect). Warm the trans to 35 - 45 degrees, supporting the car at exactly level, remove the passenger side wheel and gain access to the level check plug. With the engine running, each gear is selected for 20s. After that the engine is stopped and fresh fluid poured in about 250ml lots until a steady flow at the level check hole is achieved. Wait for this to slow to a drip and the level should now be correct.

If it were me I'd be having the fluid and filter changed regardless. In my experience it doesn't get black until after 50000km, but will be sooner with city driving I suppose.

Then take it from there.

Last edited by rondeo; 18-03-2018 at 09:01 AM.
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Old 18-03-2018, 09:57 AM   #5
ac17
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Default Re: Mondeo MC TDCI - Shudder in 1st gear & Reverse, and rough changes in lower gears

By incline the effect is more to do with a particular driving condition that requires a certain amount of revs to get moving up to which point there is shuddering...

I
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Old 18-03-2018, 09:59 AM   #6
ac17
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Default Re: Mondeo MC TDCI - Shudder in 1st gear & Reverse, and rough changes in lower gears

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mondaveo View Post
Shuddering in a DCT generally indicates incorrect clutch friction (outside what the computer expects or can calibrate for). It might be your clutches have degraded, or it might be your transmission fluid is bad (as this has a big influence on the friction in the wet DCT in Mondeo), or it might even be a sensor (as the whole thing is computer controlled).

Two avenues I would start down:
1) Get an OBDII scanner so you can read data from the car. Faulty sensors or abnormal operation should log a diagnostic trouble code (DTC).
2) Check your transmission fluid for quality and quantity. If the fluid is the wrong type or the gearbox is filled to the wrong level, it won't work properly. It sounds like this is what your mechanically-minded mate has already looked into for you.

Rondeo's DCT fluid change write-up: https://fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=11442105
My thread of data-logging and DTCs: https://fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=11452297

Based on your description I would think the prime suspect is the transmission fluid. It has the job of simultaneously cooling, lubricating, and also suspending material worn off the clutches. It requires a very specialised fluid and is very important it's changed at the correct interval.

It wouldn't be unusual for the fluid to look 'dirty' (since it collects all the junk from normal wear) but I can't say what's a 'normal' dirty, except at some point the debris in your fluid would indicate a change is overdue, or your clutches are stuffed. Definitely chase up that prior service and confirm what they used in your gearbox. I'd suspect it hasn't been done or they used the wrong stuff. If you're comfortable with putting in a little money, consider changing the fluid early and see if it makes a difference.

Unfortunately I don't know any mechanics in Sydney, but if you were in Canberra I have dealt with a top-notch shop that I could recommend for you.

I just got an OBD 2 (elm 327) scanner and FORSCAN. It's connected but under PCM there are so many options - which one/s should I be looking for?
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Old 18-03-2018, 10:35 AM   #7
rondeo
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Default Re: Mondeo MC TDCI - Shudder in 1st gear & Reverse, and rough changes in lower gears

If there are no DTCs reported then I'd change the fluid and see what happens.
If the problem continues, only Ford IDS is able to update the TCM etc if required.

Did you mean TCM? Takes a while to learn to navigate Forscan, I suppose you are using the laptop version?
There's a list of PIDs for each electronic control module. Under TCM should be trans temperature etc etc.

Just found this which is a better account of the fluid level check procedure:

http://www.furitech.com.au/

The bit about measuring the escaping fluid is what I missed. I'll update my DIY sometime. This omission is unlikely to be a problem if the specified 5.5 litres of fresh fluid is used. I've always been slightly puzzled doing the level check, measuring the escaping fluid is the key to knowing exactly when to stop adding fluid. You can't add too much, so that's not an issue.
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Old 18-03-2018, 10:53 PM   #8
ac17
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Default Re: Mondeo MC TDCI - Shudder in 1st gear & Reverse, and rough changes in lower gears

Quote:
Originally Posted by rondeo View Post
If there are no DTCs reported then I'd change the fluid and see what happens.
If the problem continues, only Ford IDS is able to update the TCM etc if required.

Did you mean TCM? Takes a while to learn to navigate Forscan, I suppose you are using the laptop version?
There's a list of PIDs for each electronic control module. Under TCM should be trans temperature etc etc.

Just found this which is a better account of the fluid level check procedure:

http://www.furitech.com.au/

The bit about measuring the escaping fluid is what I missed. I'll update my DIY sometime. This omission is unlikely to be a problem if the specified 5.5 litres of fresh fluid is used. I've always been slightly puzzled doing the level check, measuring the escaping fluid is the key to knowing exactly when to stop adding fluid. You can't add too much, so that's not an issue.

Yes - I meant TCM. I'm using FORSCAN on an android phone. But I can try from a laptop.

I'm away for next 48hrs so don't have acess to the vehicle.

Thanks for your help
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Old 21-03-2018, 08:44 PM   #9
ac17
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Default Re: Mondeo MC TDCI - Shudder in 1st gear & Reverse, and rough changes in lower gears

Quote:
Originally Posted by rondeo View Post
If there are no DTCs reported then I'd change the fluid and see what happens.
If the problem continues, only Ford IDS is able to update the TCM etc if required.

Did you mean TCM? Takes a while to learn to navigate Forscan, I suppose you are using the laptop version?
There's a list of PIDs for each electronic control module. Under TCM should be trans temperature etc etc.

Just found this which is a better account of the fluid level check procedure:

http://www.furitech.com.au/

The bit about measuring the escaping fluid is what I missed. I'll update my DIY sometime. This omission is unlikely to be a problem if the specified 5.5 litres of fresh fluid is used. I've always been slightly puzzled doing the level check, measuring the escaping fluid is the key to knowing exactly when to stop adding fluid. You can't add too much, so that's not an issue.
It can't be a fluid level problem, because if I manually select 2nd gear there is no shuddering regardless of the pitch of the road (incline or decline)
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Old 22-03-2018, 08:45 AM   #10
rondeo
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Default Re: Mondeo MC TDCI - Shudder in 1st gear & Reverse, and rough changes in lower gears

Manual is the same as automatic on the powershift.

In PRND the TCM recieves the range (PRND) selected from the transmission range sensor and decides what gear to select.
In M the TCM recieves up and downshifting orders from the driver over the CAN bus, if in agreement TCM will oblige.

In both cases the gear change process is mechanically identical.

If the fluid level is correct and the driveline components are OK, I dunno.
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Old 22-03-2018, 10:22 AM   #11
Mondaveo
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Default Re: Mondeo MC TDCI - Shudder in 1st gear & Reverse, and rough changes in lower gears

Was gonna say, I didn't know the car would let you take off from a standstill in anything other than 1st gear? I've never tried it, but I know if I'm in manual mode approaching a roundabout in 2nd and end up stopping, the tranny selects 1st gear uncommanded. So I just assumed it would override you.

(Edit: just re-read and you didn't say anything about moving from a standstill. I thought the shuddering was occurring while slipping the clutch at very low speed; once you're in motion the clutch plates are locked together and not slipping relative to each other and producing shudder. Please correct me if I'm wrong.)

(Edit again: you did say you're taking off from a standstill in 2nd in the original post. And also that 1st -> 2nd gear changes are jerky in D but smooth in M. Hmm, that's really confusing; as rondeo says it's the same robot performing both actions. Maybe your manual shifts don't match the RPM that the auto is shifting at?)

Not sure if your second gear test rules anything in or out. The clutch friction and take-up point to get rolling under 2nd gear will be different to 1st gear, which might account for why one works and the other shudders. I thought it might narrow it down to one clutch if you have shudder in 1st and Reverse but not 2nd, but I think Reverse is on the same clutch as 2nd?

Just came across this article. Seems a straightforward and correct summary for reference, and supports your hypothesis that you've got a clutch issue (after first ruling out the fluid):
https://axleaddict.com/cars/Powershi...mission-Faults
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Last edited by Mondaveo; 22-03-2018 at 10:28 AM.
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Old 22-03-2018, 12:31 PM   #12
ac17
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Default Re: Mondeo MC TDCI - Shudder in 1st gear & Reverse, and rough changes in lower gears

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mondaveo View Post
Was gonna say, I didn't know the car would let you take off from a standstill in anything other than 1st gear? I've never tried it, but I know if I'm in manual mode approaching a roundabout in 2nd and end up stopping, the tranny selects 1st gear uncommanded. So I just assumed it would override you.

(Edit: just re-read and you didn't say anything about moving from a standstill. I thought the shuddering was occurring while slipping the clutch at very low speed; once you're in motion the clutch plates are locked together and not slipping relative to each other and producing shudder. Please correct me if I'm wrong.)

(Edit again: you did say you're taking off from a standstill in 2nd in the original post. And also that 1st -> 2nd gear changes are jerky in D but smooth in M. Hmm, that's really confusing; as rondeo says it's the same robot performing both actions. Maybe your manual shifts don't match the RPM that the auto is shifting at?)

Not sure if your second gear test rules anything in or out. The clutch friction and take-up point to get rolling under 2nd gear will be different to 1st gear, which might account for why one works and the other shudders. I thought it might narrow it down to one clutch if you have shudder in 1st and Reverse but not 2nd, but I think Reverse is on the same clutch as 2nd?

Just came across this article. Seems a straightforward and correct summary for reference, and supports your hypothesis that you've got a clutch issue (after first ruling out the fluid):
https://axleaddict.com/cars/Powershi...mission-Faults
We can indeed take off in 2nd from a stand still (and I'm sure you can too - use manual mode)!

Thanks yeah that article describes it pretty accurately - must be the clutch plate... Sounds exy... Will call a few places...
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Old 22-03-2018, 02:20 PM   #13
rondeo
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Default Re: Mondeo MC TDCI - Shudder in 1st gear & Reverse, and rough changes in lower gears

Quote:
Originally Posted by ac17 View Post
We can indeed take off in 2nd from a stand still (and I'm sure you can too - use manual mode)!

Thanks yeah that article describes it pretty accurately - must be the clutch plate... Sounds exy... Will call a few places...
Until the evidence is in I reckon it's might, not must. That is, maybe the clutches (plural).
Hope you get it fixed!

As for S or M mode, I've never used it except to see if it works,
roundabouts included. I just press the accelerator to a certain point which I know from experience will give the desired acceleration, eventually.
It seems easier to let the ROBOT decide when to change gear.

Ta for the interesting link Mondaveo! I Robot is a great movie if you haven't seen it. AFAIK, IMHO, etc etc.

Mr Badger's video isn't really up to standard though, much better following my DIY instructions with the soon to be updated details.

Last edited by rondeo; 22-03-2018 at 02:29 PM.
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