Decision on Future Falcon Wagon coming soon.

[MONSOON]

Originally Posted by ColourHide

The territory is better equipped and priced, it's going to be hard to justify another falcon wagon.

The territory is great BUT, is heavier on fuel than the falcon wagon & has no LPG option, & if it was a suitable fleet replacement for the falcon wagon surely it would've happened already

[747jet]

if ford made a fpv wagon i would buy one 100% but thay will need to update the rear end.thay cant leave it with leaf springs dont matter what the cost spending money on the wagon will make ford money in sales.ford please dont drop the wagon :

[FPV GTHO]

Originally Posted by Quasi

Fill the void my butt. anybody who believes a Mondeo wagon is a suitable stand-in needs to open thier eyes. Ford have obviously already given up the fight.

Quite some time ago I was in line for a position that included a lease vehicle of my choice. A wagon was the practical option, but I wanted a performance model, none of that 'old fart woolworths' anti-style crap. I missed out on the position, but was ready to sign for an SS Sportwagon, as there was/is no Ford option.

An FG XR8 wagon would look really sweet in my driveway, but since Ford have thier head up thier butt I would happily look at the alternative, and that means no Ford in my driveway anymore, as the wife owns a Magna and I'd have to part with my beloved Ghia since I can't afford three cars.

What have Ford to fight for when all they have is local sales? Do you think Holden wouldve still developed the sportwagon if they knew those promised US exports would tank?

[LTDterri]

The reality is the Falcon wagon is real old now it did start life as an AU, having said that they are a great fleet car but even fleet operators want something more modern. The mondeo is a nice looking vehicle but I wonder how sloooowwww must this thing be with a little 4clyd pulling a heavy vehicle and I suppose the Territory is doing the wagon duties for families so in Ford's mind why build a Falcon wagon. I for one would love an FG Wagon, particularily if they had an XR8 wagon, but in fords wisdom they are slowly reducing their line up

[Smoke Pursuit]

Id look at an FG Wagon for work instead of my ute... I dont really need a ute but its handy and most of the stuff i cart around in it could do so in a wagon, as per my previous work Ford Territory..

I doubt they will do anything with the Falcon wagon, but anythings possible.

[phillyc]

Originally Posted by vztrt

It seems to have gone from 1600 to 1000 quite quickly, at least the Terri was a few years as it dropped down to this level (no surprising as it hasn't really changed).

Well, for a car that was spruiked as beating every SUV since it's release. I think the sportwagon has now been outsold by Captiva 2 months in a row.

[atec77]

Originally Posted by Windsor220

Sedan sales are going ok atm so if the wagon gets killed they should be able to sell a couple of hundred more sedans to make up the loss.
Another thing is he mentioned they were in talks with current fleet partners so if they werent happy with going to Mondeo then Id say the Falcon wagon would keep going.

What we and many other need is a RWD large capacity wagon in v8 on gas
We couldn't buy any so now the reps have sports wagons on gas , I hate them almost as much as the Mondeo for the purpose and I dislike the Terry for much the same reason
If Ford does drop the wagon it will lose thousands of sales a year to jap and eu replacements because I am sure people will continue to buy what's needed despite Fords claims to the contrary ( fwd wagons are dreadful loaded heavily to drive distance)

[banarcus]

Originally Posted by atec77

What we and many other need is a RWD large capacity wagon in v8 on gas
We couldn't buy any so now the reps have sports wagons on gas , I hate them almost as much as the Mondeo for the purpose and I dislike the Terry for much the same reason
If Ford does drop the wagon it will lose thousands of sales a year to jap and eu replacements because I am sure people will continue to buy what's needed despite Fords claims to the contrary ( fwd wagons are dreadful loaded heavily to drive distance)

Hmm there might be a market for my old ED Fairmont V8 when Ford drop the local station wagon. I can't see Ford investing a precious resource on something that doesn't sell that well. Money better spent on the Territory and other high profit models. Mondeo does need a diesel though, perhaps a V6 turbo diesel, a premium station wagon with good load capcity. In its current form, I'd get overtaken towing a trailer or a boat so a bit more thought here please Ford.

[Joe5619]

Mondeo will come out in Diesel next year, which will fix the "lack of pulling power" some here seem to have.. Also, it seems to my that Telstra will have a large say in what happens.. If they have no problems with the Mondeo, say good bye to the Falcon wagon.. If Telstra says "We'll take the Diesel Mondeo Wagon", then the loss of sales won’t be that big to Ford & it will cost Ford AU NOTHING in R&D.. It would also solve the shortage of Territorys & top end Falcons. They would be able to build another 400 between the 2 & they might just increase Ford sales, rather than loss sales??

[barra240t]

Mondeo should have come in diesel from day one. Seeing that the diesel option in Zetec Hatch is $3000 this should make Mondeo Wagon in diesel aroudn $40990. A BFIII XT Wagon is $41220. Which would you rather drive? I am guessing once you drive both, Mondeo would be the winner on power, features and fuel economy.

[FalconXR6]

If the Mondeo wagon was truly a suitable replacement for the BFIII wags, then Telstra and Marin wouldn't be in "discussions". End of story.

I strongly doubt that people would cross shop a Falcon wagon with a Mondeo wagon.

There is a market out there for a "stylish" wagon.
If Ford could combine that style factor with the current wagon's practicality and offer it as an XT, G and XR variants with a gas and / or diesel option thrown in amongst these and it would be onto a winner, in my opinion - just look at the number of people who have, for reasons I cannot understand, purchased a Commo "sportwagon".

Ford just need to either bite the bullet on costs vs projected sales or bin the wagon and loose market share. There's no middle ground.

[Joe5619]

Originally Posted by FalconXR6

If the Mondeo wagon was truly a suitable replacement for the BFIII wags, then Telstra and Marin wouldn't be in "discussions". End of story. .

And that is exactly the impression I got from the articles. I.E. Marin is in "disussions" with Telstra & his asking them, "do you want Mondeo or Falcon!!".. If they are not in discussions then there is no sales of either Falcon or Mondeo (end of story), so I dont understand your comments??

[irlewy86]

Falcon wagon kinda reminds me of the Terminator. Everytime you think they've finally killed it, it comes back for more.

[FalconXR6]

Originally Posted by Joe5619

And that is exactly the impression I got from the articles. I.E. Marin is in "disussions" with Telstra & his asking them, "do you want Mondeo or Falcon!!".. If they are not in discussions then there is no sales of either Falcon or Mondeo (end of story), so I dont understand your comments??

My comments implied;
a) who is cross shopping a Mondeo with a Falcon ?
b) if the two are so similar (i.e. if the Mondeo wagon was TRULY an alternative to a Falcon wagon, as some are suggesting), then would it not make sense for Telstra to simply switch across to the Mondeo wagon without discussing the suitability of the Mondeo wagon against the Falcon wagon ?

I see where you are coming from, and that may very well what the "discussion" is all about - Marin offering them a deal on Mondeo's. But without the quoted convo it's hard to say...

[max_torq]

I drive a wagon between capitols every week, fully laden. I need something that will sit at fast highway speeds day in day out, mid summer, and the more I can carry the more profitable the operation, so carrying capacity is important. The ford wagon is very efficient, reliable, low cost spares and cheap to own. Since journeys are often 12+ hours I want a comfortable interior trim, which is where the BA+ wagons fall down, the futura is just not good enough. Gas six is very good, a V8 would be decadent. An LPG turbo though, that could work. Car needs to be able to tow a heavy trailer as well. I just can't see a diesel mondeo doing anything as well, nor being as serviceable as the wagon after a few years, nor being pleasant to drive. Just put the irs under the wagon shell, and make a G6E trim level available; Ford will get the commercial market and will still be selling the model in ten years...

[new2ford]

Originally Posted by max_torq

I drive a wagon between capitols every week, fully laden. I need something that will sit at fast highway speeds day in day out, mid summer, and the more I can carry the more profitable the operation, so carrying capacity is important. The ford wagon is very efficient, reliable, low cost spares and cheap to own. Since journeys are often 12+ hours I want a comfortable interior trim, which is where the BA+ wagons fall down, the futura is just not good enough. Gas six is very good, a V8 would be decadent. An LPG turbo though, that could work. Car needs to be able to tow a heavy trailer as well. I just can't see a diesel mondeo doing anything as well, nor being as serviceable as the wagon after a few years, nor being pleasant to drive. Just put the irs under the wagon shell, and make a G6E trim level available; Ford will get the commercial market and will still be selling the model in ten years...

Yes they would be mad to kill it off. Heaven knows there's very few really practical cars left on the market nowadays.

And is Ford planning to release the Mondeo and Territory in gas versions? I bet not.

The only way they could possibly get around this is to square up the rear end of the Territory (to make it more practical as a cargo carrier and to get the spare wheel stored vertical inside behind the rear wheel arch) and release it in gas for the economy. Perhaps then you might get something that's even better than the Falcon wagon due to more vertical space in the cargo area (greater body height).

I carry some big stuff in the back of the Territory and that sloping rear is a bugger as a space-robber. I haven't seen the Mondeo but I can't imagine it has anything going for it.

Does anybody readily have internal dimensions for the cargo area of these three models (second row seats folded down)?

[FalconXV]

Originally Posted by Gobes32

Sorry to burst the bubble but......

New Roof is 3 dies.
New door inner and outer is 16 dies
New body sides will be 8 dies
New liftgate inner and outer is 8 dies

At 100k to build a die we are already over 3 mill and not one bit of r & d has been done, nor crash testing etc. Also, you would most likely need to modify the floorpan, etc. It will cost near on 20 - 30 mill just to give it a nice ****-end. Averaging 3k profit on each unit sold, you will need to sell 10,000 before you even earn a cent. And remember, this is only a facelift.........

Then the choice seems to be continue to apply the law of diminishing returns, or quickly recoup the spendings with a fresh look, thus generating more sales. Or option 3, throw the baby out with the bathwater and cede local wagon supremancy to the opposition, who have carved a niche with the segment. The nameplate is too good to die (Falcon wagon).

[dannyxm]

IMO The BF Falcon is the perfect fleet car / taxi due to its load capacity and comfort. Should it be brought into line with the FG Series it may go the way of the Commodore wagon where it looks good but is not as useful as the BF wagon was / is.

In its current guise, there is not another competitor in its class.

The Mondeo Wagon falls into the same category and is not a suitable replacement to the Falcon.

I think it would be a good idea to just keep making the BF wagon as per Ford continuing to build the XF utes well into the E series days.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by new2ford

Does anybody readily have internal dimensions for the cargo area of these three models (second row seats folded down)?

Falc Wagon

Luggage Capacity (L) Petrol E-Gas
Seats upright 1254 1174
Seats down 2584 2504

Terri

Luggage Capacity (L)
5 seater (behind 2nd row) 1153L

Mondeo - Not sure what the others are measured in.

Luggage Capacity (L)
Seats upright (SAE / ISO) 1005 / 542
Rear seats folded (SAE / ISO) 2163 / 1733

[new2ford]

Originally Posted by vztrt

Falc Wagon



Terri



Mondeo - Not sure what the others are measured in.

I think the Terri figure is behind First row. Behind 2nd row is given as 523 IIRC.

[vztrt]

The figures are from the ford website, so thought it would be right.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by new2ford

I think the Terri figure is behind First row. Behind 2nd row is given as 523 IIRC.

first row refers to driver and passenger.

whichever way you look at it, its very hard to beat the falcon on practicality.

[new2ford]

I'm suspicious about the Terri figure, it doesn't sound right. I've carried a single bed in the Terri. Also the ceiling height is greater so wouldn't a measurement in litres take account of that?

More meaningful in each case would be to be to simply measure along the floor from back of first row to tailgate, across the floor from wheelarch to wheelarch and from cargo floor to ceiling. I've no doubt the Falcon leads overall, I'd just like to get an accurate idea of the differences.

[systema]

I think the axeing of the wagon may have something to do with the news re: BTR / ION / DSI / whatever they are called now is going to phase out the 4 speeder earlier this year.

Ford can either put the FG drivetrain in the wagon with minimal front panel and interior update and call it something else. However, re-engineering the wagon to take the 5 speeder and/or the FG drivetrain and bringing it to 5 star ANCAP rating is likely to be expensive, while fitting the 6 speed ZF as a temporary measure is not likely to be economically viable either. Considering the fact that Ford is not exactly loaded with cash at the moment, it's likely that they won't be spending that much money on the wagon.

What they will do is likely to have a 2-tier system, i.e. Mondeo (base model) wagon to be the basic repmobile, like what they do in Europe, while leaving the Territory w/ 6 speeder (or the Territory replacement w/ the FG or Huntsman drivetrain) as the 'premium' wagon in the range. However, this kinda defeats the marketing effort of the marketing team at the moment as they are marketing the mondeo as a premium product.

By the way, the long abandoned EGas system may get a bit of tweaking to work with the 5 speeder as well - considering the fact that they now offer that with DSC, it seems like Ford is putting some work in it.

Of course, these are all speculations. Time will tell if they are correct or not.

[Chopped]

Alternates wagon models-

A territory based (clever interior etc) wagon (low sedan height / not SUV)

or

A "RV" version of the existing wagon.

[phillyc]

Originally Posted by systema

I think the axeing of the wagon may have something to do with the news re: BTR / ION / DSI / whatever they are called now is going to phase out the 4 speeder earlier this year.

By the way, the long abandoned EGas system may get a bit of tweaking to work with the 5 speeder as well - considering the fact that they now offer that with DSC, it seems like Ford is putting some work in it.

Q1 & Q2 2010 the contracts for both the Ion 4spd auto and current Vapour / Mixer LPG system come to an end.

[Paxton]

Originally Posted by phillyc

Q1 & Q2 2010 the contracts for both the Ion 4spd auto and current Vapour / Mixer LPG system come to an end.

As does the Territory contract. DSI is about to loose ~1,000 gearboxes a month, from a customer who has been more than loyal. (This customer actually kept them afloat last year).

It actually surprises me that the 6 Speed Auto, based on the BTR-93LE isn't being used in the Base model Falcons. Maybe with Huntsman...

[phillyc]

My thoughts are that Ford will add the FG engine and 5spd drivetrain by spending $10M and create the BF4. That there is no interior mod’s either. No way to get 5 stars without those airbags in the B series body either. This simply means it is not a long term solution. But, it would then suffice for another 18mths (8000 units) bringing the R&D cost down to $1250 per car. This though, means you NEVER attract new private customers and perhaps a dwindling business base too.

Burela said 2 months ago that the FG wagon has been designed. What he didn't say is that it isn't engineered. That will take a while. Certainly more than the 7-8 mths we now have left until 1st July 2010. But could do it within 12-15mths. This would cost about $100-$110M based on the VE SW. You could then say, that would be the last substantial facelift it needed until 2015 when the FG platform gets retired.

I believe an FG SW could contribute 800-1000 sales a month. 400 sales would be existing customers (providing their needs are met), with the remainder split between conquest sales and defections from the sedan. There are 3 sets/permutations of the numbers:
Full sales
#1 Full 800-1000 sales / month x 5 yrs = 48-60k sales. R&D equals $1750-2250 / car.
Full sales – sedan conquest
#2 Net 600-800 sales / month x 5 yrs = 36-48k sales. R&D equals $2100-3000 / car.
Full sales – sedan conquest & assumed continuing
#3 Net 200-400 sales / month x 5 yrs = 12-24k sales. R&D equals $4000-9000 / car.

The big problem is I can't see them NOT producing a wagon for a few months, and there is no way for Ford to build a 6mth stockpile (2500) of wagons to carry them over from June to Nov 2010 / Jan 2011. They are currently stretched to maximum at the current daily build rate. (Not completely sure with the emissions reg's if they would be allowed to sell a Euro 3 car built prior to Jul 1st after that date anyway.)
But, I think GMH did have that gap / stock build up IIRC. Maybe that helped with the initial 1400/mth burst?

I also think that adding an FG front to the current platform would be a big mistake. Taking the FG as a range downmarket, particularly perception, which is the opposite of what the sedan has been doing.

I think comparing #2 FG SW R&D cost permutation to the BF4 costs is the most apt. Why? Workcover is trying to push 5star safety for work vehicles. This would spell the end for the BF4 business fleet business. So, essentially the cost difference is $850-$1750 longer term for R&D. Have a look at the price of an SV6 SW compared to SV6 sedan and FG XR6 sedan. In order it’s $41990da, $37990da & $36990da. I think the $4k retail pricing difference more than offsets the R&D cost.

I hope Ford builds an FG SW, but keeps the vast bulk of the BF practicality.

[phillyc]

Originally Posted by Paxton

As does the Territory contract. DSI is about to loose ~1,000 gearboxes a month, from a customer who has been more than loyal. (This customer actually kept them afloat last year).

It actually surprises me that the 6 Speed Auto, based on the BTR-93LE isn't being used in the Base model Falcons. Maybe with Huntsman...

Correct on both points. Ford has been a terrific long term customer / partner to DSI in all it's forms.

The Ford deal, and them standing by DSI is what kept them in business. It also attracted the Chinese investors to DSI in the first place.

The 6spd, is obviously the one which fits inside the 4spd case. Brilliant i reckon! Could imagine a few retro-fits to earlier cars in the years to come

I had hoped that 6spd would be on FG. But not to be. Perhaps Ford were worried about relying on a supplier as small (global sense) as DSI is for such an integral part of their car? Then again, taking the Bordeaux 5spd, was most likely the forerunner to getting the US 3.7L Ford V6.

[new2ford]

Had a look at a friend's gas wagon today, I must say I was impressed - but on the other hand the cargo area doesn't seem too different from the Territory so I don't know where the wildly different figures are coming from.

My wagon brochure shows the distance from the back of the front row to the inside top tailgate is 1974, the width between the rear doors is 1494 and the height from 2nd row seat to ceiling is 1043.

Unfortunately my Terri brochure doesn't show all the same measurements. The only figures available there are 2nd row headroom 1006, width between rear doors 1528. Now down to the garage with the tape measure: OK longitudinal measurement about 1900.

So not a lot of difference between the two IMO. But gas is the big plus with the wagon.