HOLDEN Boss: "Australians still want large cars - Page 3

jpd80 · 12-12-2010, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeadFoot81

The problem is the Falcon and Commodore haven't evolved at the same pace as small cars/medium cars/soft roaders mainly because they aren't global cars like pretty much every other car available to Aussie consumers.

That's it in a nutshell, every other manufacturer is bringing vehicles on global platforms.

I have a feeling that FoA will struggle to justify another Territory against the new Explorer,
put a V6 diesel in the FWD/AWD Explorer and it will do everything The new TDCI Territory does.
It's not a big leap from there to realising that a mid sized and large sedan that share a lot of parts
with Explorer may make a lot of sense for Australia.

b0son · 12-12-2010, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeadFoot81

Prydey, it isn't just features that small cars have *over* the Falcon; it's features that small cars *now have* that were previously *only available* on large cars like Falcon and Commodore.

I have to ask, what features? Base models we're always fairly dismally equipped, with even much cheaper 4cyl's having more standard equipment.

LeadFoot81 · 12-12-2010, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prydey

that to me is just a case of manufacturers no longer discriminating against buyers of small cars.

again, i'm not familiar with small cars and their wonderful features. my wife has a ls focus and while that is an lx model, it is 4 yrs old, so hopefully the new models offer a fair bit more or the argument starts looking a bit scratchy.

I think you're sort of right: car companies have stopped discriminating against small car buyers, but the flow on effect has been the people who wouldntve considered small cars before are now being enticed. Also take into account that owning a car in general has never been so expensive.

To give you an example my Mrs Fiesta Zetec has bodykit, wheels, fog lights, Bluetooth, stereo that plays mp3s, voice activation, cruise control, power windows. The interior is well thought out with just enough quality plastics and looks funky-as at night with red ambient lighting. All for 22k. The new Focus will be the same if not better. How can you top that?

I hope the Falcon and Commodore live on, but I think they will fill the niche that the Fairlane and Statesman once inhabited.

LeadFoot81 · 12-12-2010, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by b0son

I have to ask, what features? Base models we're always fairly dismally equipped, with even much cheaper 4cyl's having more standard equipment.

By features I mean everything: not only equipment, but interior and exterior design and bling, and the general driving experience.

In 2010, the decision to buy a 20ish K hatch over a base model Falcadore (30ish K) is a much easier one.

**buggerlugs** · 12-12-2010, 07:57 PM

Not to mention resale values, late model Falcon and Commodores, can't give them away. 7/2008 FG XR6 38,000ks $18,600 the other day at the auctions........

**Fordman1** · 12-12-2010, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prydey

according to this article
http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=11316794

the holden dedicated lpg system will be liquid injection. ford's new system will also be single fuel liquid injection system.

also, don't confuse vapour system with the old mixer system. holden's current dual fuel car runs a vapour injected system.

The Holden system will be Gas Injection, Liquid injection is on the Ford Only.

Gas injection is harder to do than liquid injection BTW. Holden will have trouble getting it up and running too.

b0son · 12-12-2010, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeadFoot81

In 2010, the decision to buy a 20ish K hatch over a base model Falcadore (30ish K) is a much easier one.

In 2004, I was buying Falcon for $40k with manual rear window winders... Spend even 2/3 of that on a hatch at the time, and you would have had more options than you could poke a stick at.

tezxr8man · 12-12-2010, 08:10 PM

do ford and holden realise that falcons and commodores now are pretty much the same size as fairlanes and statoes from 20 years ago and so called small cars are really quite large thes days?
MAYBE they need to downsize a little bit and lighten the load??? Perception is everything and the common idiot thinks they're just huge gas guzzlers, and to an extent they are right
I love them and what they stand for with comfort effortless driving in every way but in my driveway now is an FG beside my EB and the old EB is belittled by the FG maybe I'm looking at it differently and the wrong way but its a point none the less

b0son · 12-12-2010, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tezxr8man

MAYBE they need to downsize a little bit and lighten the load??? Perception is everything and the common idiot thinks they're just huge gas guzzlers, and to an extent they are right

well, lets face it - they are. on anything but the open road, they drink like its going out of fashion. they really need to look at something like landrover's stop/start tech - it would make a significant difference. and unlike Holden's AFM, it would actually work.

GK · 12-12-2010, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by banarcus

I was comparing a BA XR8 to a Golf Pacific. Apart from the 5.4L V8 and the great sound and acceleration, the Golf does everything better. Personal choice really, we chose a non Australian car and it does the job beautifully. You chose a FG XR6 looking at your avatar and I wont knock your choice because it obviously does the job for you.

I've enjoyed reading this entire thread. But I'll weigh in here.

I understand fully that for some people, the imported car will be the choice, and yes it'll often do a lot of things better than the locally made large car.

For myself, I'll take the locally made item, for a few good reasons.
1. I've not got the money to fork out for a new car. Even if I did, it'd be a G6E DLPG or such.
2. I'd rather compromise on buying an Aussie made car - one made less than 15kms from my home, than buying an import that does things better. I love my country and will support the local industry. I'm happy to trade off a few of my own comforts or features to support the local industry.
3. I like big cars. On LPG, the cost of driving them is pretty cheap.
4. Parts are cheap and available everywhere.
5. I take long family trips a few times a year, and we have two growing girls. Our AU wagon does a stellar job for such trips. Sure, it doesn't have the interior or allure/kudos of a hot Euro import, but I feel proud as punch driving it.
6. Fords are good enough for me. I'm not really into whinging about what features it doesn't have. I don't need all the latest gear to feel important or that somehow I've made it.

Before I finish the post, I'm not saying that all here who are advocating small Euro cars etc are trying to feel important. I can tell from your posts that most simply enjoy the driving experience that they offer. I fully get that. But there are of course lots of people who drive Euro stuff to feel "special", or make some kind of snobby statement. That's not me.

Each to their own, but I'm proud to say that I love my Fords, love my Falcons. I'm grateful that they're still around and hope that's the case for a long time to come, and that I might continue to be able to afford the costs of running them and have the joy of owning them.

GK

stevz · 12-12-2010, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by csv8

The new Skodas are pretty good !! Superb got a Car of the Year Award.

That may be so but it doesnt hide the fact they are FUGLY.

Give me a G6 any day.

prydey · 12-12-2010, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by b0son

well, lets face it - they are. on anything but the open road, they drink like its going out of fashion. they really need to look at something like landrover's stop/start tech - it would make a significant difference. and unlike Holden's AFM, it would actually work.

i don't know what you consider acceptible fuel economy? merc's and bmw's etc can achieve slightly better economy than our local large cars, but they are also much lighter due to different building materials which also impact on the cost to build and sell.
the honda accord with its cylinder de activation is considered economical for a large car but is in fact no more economical than a falcon, which doesn't even have direct injection.

smaller capacity forced induction is the new way forward and falcon have that coming.

my fg is only 1L/100km more thirsty than my wife's ls focus. not exactly gas guzzling.

GK - exaclty right. there is still a market for the large car. it will never be what it once was because of the range of choice on the market, but there is still a market for it.

b0son · 12-12-2010, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prydey

my fg is only 1L/100km more thirsty than my wife's ls focus. not exactly gas guzzling.

i dont know anything about the type of driving you're doing ... my friend who has an FG XR6 (turbo admittedly, but seldom on boost) has woeful fuel consumption. he has the misfortune to drive in stop-start traffic much of the time, and he pays for it at the bowser.

my BA, which spent almost no time on the freeway, never got better than 14L/100km. on the same roads, my GTI does 9L/100km.

Is the FG 20-30% more economical than the BA? I cant see how an FG isnt going to get better than 13L/100km in my hands.

as I've already mentioned, I'm not interested if it cant do better than 10L/100km.

prydey · 12-12-2010, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by b0son

i dont know anything about the type of driving you're doing ... my friend who has an FG XR6 (turbo admittedly, but seldom on boost) has woeful fuel consumption. he has the misfortune to drive in stop-start traffic much of the time, and he pays for it at the bowser.

my BA, which spent almost no time on the freeway, never got better than 14L/100km. on the same roads, my GTI does 9L/100km.

Is the FG 20-30% more economical than the BA? I cant see how an FG isnt going to get better than 13L/100km in my hands.

as I've already mentioned, I'm not interested if it cant do better than 10L/100km.

my ave km/h is 45, so it may be slightly higher than some but even those who drive in sydney peak hour still achieve 12's.

you make a lot of assumptions. fg is quite a bit more economical than ba. my ba was about 2L/100km worse than my fg. that works out to about 20%.

also, just because it doesn't suit your situation, doesn't mean they are thirsty cars. the fact that with fuel and driver they are basically 2tonne, i think they are very good.

b0son · 12-12-2010, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prydey

the fact that with fuel and driver they are basically 2tonne, i think they are very good.

in this day, i dont think there's any excuse for a car being anywhere near 2 tonne.

doesnt matter how much power you throw at it, it will be noticed as soon as you have to stop or steer.

banarcus · 12-12-2010, 10:09 PM

Well the Holden boss says that Australians still want large cars. We shall wait and see what GMH have up their sleeves compared to what Ford are doing with the Falcon.

prydey · 12-12-2010, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by b0son

in this day, i dont think there's any excuse for a car being anywhere near 2 tonne.

doesnt matter how much power you throw at it, it will be noticed as soon as you have to stop or steer.

i find that a short sighted view. it stops and steers better than my focus.

i guess with so much choice there is no excuse for not finding a car thats right for you. for me, i'll stick with large cars. 4 people plus luggage in comfort accross the country. that'll do me.

Cabbage · 12-12-2010, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by b0son

Great, but how many people actually do that? A family car for real families, doesnt actually need acres of rear space.

It looks more like an argument for designing Falcadores for cops and taxi drivers.

I'd say thats exactly what a family car should have, space! Wait til the kids get a bigger and the GTI will be on the way out pretty quick. I think someone mentioned in this thread about the falcon's competition, its no longer only the commodore, families look to soft roaders and SUV's now, their versatility is the key. And I agree the Falcon now more than ever needs a sports style wagon.

b0son · 12-12-2010, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prydey

i find that a short sighted view. it stops and steers better than my focus.

thats why i wont buy a ford hatch

I can feel every extra kilo whn I drive a Falcon compared to my GTI. its why my next car will be another hot hatch, and not a Falcadore. I'd think again however if Ford looked at the weight issue.

b0son · 12-12-2010, 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cabbage

Wait til the kids get a bigger and the GTI will be on the way out pretty quick.

we have an SUV as the family car... like you said, versatility. a Falcon simply wont go where we've taken our Freelander2. that said, we did take the Falcon on some goat tracks in the Grampians, and it did survive ....

PoweredByCNG · 12-12-2010, 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barraxr8

The Holden system will be Gas Injection, Liquid injection is on the Ford Only.

Gas injection is harder to do than liquid injection BTW. Holden will have trouble getting it up and running too.

Nope. Holden, like Ford, will be using the Orbital Liquid Injection system.

Gas injection is EASIER to implement in single-fuel form than liquid injection in Australia also. This is due to requirements due to 'safety'.

jpd80 · 12-12-2010, 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by b0son

in this day, i dont think there's any excuse for a car being anywhere near 2 tonne.

doesnt matter how much power you throw at it, it will be noticed as soon as you have to stop or steer.

Then go tell that to BMW because their I-6 and V8 5 series
are almost the same weight as corresponding FG Falcons.
And that goes double for the Commodore variants too.

vztrt · 13-12-2010, 12:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by b0son

If you enjoy watching your money going up in smoke... I wouldnt even look at a car anymore that cant get under 10l/100km.

I find paying Foxtel throwing money up in smoke but other dont have an issue with it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by b0son

my BA, which spent almost no time on the freeway, never got better than 14L/100km. on the same roads, my GTI does 9L/100km.

Is the FG 20-30% more economical than the BA? I cant see how an FG isnt going to get better than 13L/100km in my hands.

as I've already mentioned, I'm not interested if it cant do better than 10L/100km.

Seriously 9's out of a small car. That's pretty poor. I mean if small cars aren't doing 7's then I'm not interested.

b0son · 13-12-2010, 12:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

Then go tell that to BMW because their I-6 and V8 5 series
are almost the same weight as corresponding FG Falcons.
And that goes double for the Commodore variants too.

I'm sure the 5 series would be lighter if they set the bar for NVH as low as the Falcadore.

Is it a valid comparison? If you're shopping for a 5 series, you can well afford the fuel bill that comes with the extra mass. OTOH, the Falcadore is marketed at average families. Average families have kids, mortgages, etc. Its laughable when someone suggests that the Falcon doesnt need to be more economical. When fuel prices spiked, which cars sales were the most affected?

10 years from now these same people will probably be on this forum whinging that the Falcon might still be around if only Ford had done this or that ....

b0son · 13-12-2010, 12:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vztrt

Seriously 9's out of a small car. That's pretty poor.

Yeah, I guess. But when it hoses the car it replaced so utterly, I'm willing to live with it.

vztrt · 13-12-2010, 01:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by b0son

Yeah, I guess. But when it hoses the car it replaced so utterly, I'm willing to live with it.

Funny I get low 12 with my BF, the missus gets 11.2 with her FG (also her previous car was a 4cyl and it apparently isn't costing her that much more for fuel). What I'm paying a week for fuel doesn't bother me, people spend same/more on stuff that I find a waste of money but they find perfectly reasonable. Horses for courses.

tezxr8man · 13-12-2010, 01:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by b0son

thats why i wont buy a ford hatch

I can feel every extra kilo whn I drive a Falcon compared to my GTI. its why my next car will be another hot hatch, and not a Falcadore. I'd think again however if Ford looked at the weight issue.

Even you're GTI isnt that light have a look how much heavier they are compared to older ones and see, they are round even par with every other hot hatch as well, these days it don,t matter what badge is on the front of a hot hatch they're all the same front drive turbo'd and all around the same weight