Russia v Ukraine - Page 28

T3rminator · 12-05-2022, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

The justification for this war was to prevent NATO expansion. Russia's actions have now have meant that potentially there will be two new NATO states as well as having galvenised the existing members.

That's it. But until they formally join or get rejected, its hard to say whether they have achieved their objective. If Sweden and Finland join, then massive fail on that objective. But if they are rejected, then Putin will have achieved his objective.

I tend to agree there will be a NATO-lite. There are some members of NATO who are quietly in disagreement with Zelendskky, I'm thinking Greece, Italy, Hungary and perhaps even Spain.

And have a read of Macron's statement on Ukraine and the EU application. Seems to indicate there may also be a revamp of the EU in the near future.

Interesting times ahead.

Mulva · 12-05-2022, 09:05 PM

That's the weird thing Mitchay - like you say Ukraine could not have joined NATO even if they wanted to due to their ongoing conflicts, and they had not made an application to join (all they had signalled was they wanted to join the EU)...so the pretence that Russia invaded to keep a buffer between them and NATO is bull****. And if it isn't then it has spectacularly backfired.

The fact that NATO does not admit countries with existing disputes is probably another reason why Sweden and Finland have signed that defensive pact with UK - because there is every chance Putin will initiate some bull**** border skirmish with Finland to try to make them ineligible for NATO membership.

**FairmontGS** · 12-05-2022, 09:27 PM

Hmmm...

Ten more European gas buyers open ruble accounts for payments

Ten more European gas buyers have opened accounts in Gazprombank JSC, doubling the total number of clients preparing to pay in rubles for Russian gas as President Vladimir Putin demanded.
A total of twenty European companies have opened accounts, with another 14 clients asking for the paperwork needed to set them up, the person said, speaking on condition of anonymity to discuss confidential matters. He declined to identify the companies.

https://english.alarabiya.net/News/w...s-for-payments

https://www.google.com/search?q=rubl...&bih=653&dpr=2

MITCHAY · 12-05-2022, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T3rminator

That's it. But until they formally join or get rejected, its hard to say whether they have achieved their objective. If Sweden and Finland join, then massive fail on that objective. But if they are rejected, then Putin will have achieved his objective.

I tend to agree there will be a NATO-lite. There are some members of NATO who are quietly in disagreement with Zelendskky, I'm thinking Greece, Italy, Hungary and perhaps even Spain.

And have a read of Macron's statement on Ukraine and the EU application. Seems to indicate there may also be a revamp of the EU in the near future.

Interesting times ahead.

It it fails, then no chance Ukraine was ever going to be admitted

The very fact that both even intend on applying is in itself significant. We will see what happens, many months or years for this war to run. Hoping for the former.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mulva

That's the weird thing Mitchay - like you say Ukraine could not have joined NATO even if they wanted to due to their ongoing conflicts, and they had not made an application to join (all they had signalled was they wanted to join the EU)...so the pretence that Russia invaded to keep a buffer between them and NATO is bull****. And if it isn't then it has spectacularly backfired.

The fact that NATO does not admit countries with existing disputes is probably another reason why Sweden and Finland have signed that defensive pact with UK - because there is every chance Putin will initiate some bull**** border skirmish with Finland to try to make them ineligible for NATO membership.

Now it's the Nazi propaganda to keep it going and potentially escalate. It's a powerful tool given history.

T3rminator · 12-05-2022, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mulva

The fact that NATO does not admit countries with existing disputes is probably another reason why Sweden and Finland have signed that defensive pact with UK - because there is every chance Putin will initiate some bull**** border skirmish with Finland to try to make them ineligible for NATO membership.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

As far as I'm aware NATO does not admit countries who have existing conflicts such as Ukraine did with Russia but yet here we are.

If this is correct, then all Zelenskyy had to do was to say "no" to a club that he wasn't qualified to join anyway, and all this could have been averted.

But he didn't. And NATO didn't say "no" either. Something doesn't add up.

MITCHAY · 12-05-2022, 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T3rminator

If this is correct, then all Zelenskyy had to do was to say "no" to a club that he wasn't qualified to join anyway, and all this could have been averted.

But he didn't. And NATO didn't say "no" either. Something doesn't add up.

Putin was fully aware of this and doubt it would have made a difference. IMO it was the ambiguity of whether NATO forces would get directly involved regardless of having no obligation that gave Putin a second thought about invading.

That was resolved when the US publicly stated there would not be boots on the ground effectively giving a greenlight.

Itsme · 13-05-2022, 12:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

As far as I'm aware NATO does not admit countries who have existing conflicts such as Ukraine did with Russia but yet here we are.

The justification for this war was to prevent NATO expansion. Russia's actions have now have meant that potentially there will be two new NATO states as well as having galvenised the existing members.

A massive waste of life to acheive nothing.

I honestly don't believe Nato expansion was the justification of Russia attack with Ukraine, look into the history of the two nations and the recent conflict that has been going on since 2014 with Crimea and the Donbas.

PhilT2 · 13-05-2022, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Itsme

I honestly don't believe Nato expansion was the justification of Russia attack with Ukraine, look into the history of the two nations and the recent conflict that has been going on since 2014 with Crimea and the Donbas.

When the pro-Russian govt was chucked out in Feb 2014 the interim govt was trying to stay neutral. But the Russians moved in and took Crimea in March then the Donbas in August. When elections were held in October the new Ukrainian govt resolved to formally seek NATO membership. So I think that the situation is the other way around. Ukraine sought NATO membership because of Russian aggression. The same applies now to Finland and Sweden; they would not be seeking NATO membership if it were not for Russian aggression.

Nobody is saying Ukraine is perfect, there are a lot of issues there. But surely a country is entitled to secure borders.

T3rminator · 13-05-2022, 12:49 PM

Its a bit of a vicious cycle isn't it? NATO is established to keep one particular country restrained. That country gets more agitated and aggressive every time NATO grows, which it has been. So to counter the aggressiveness, you grow the NATO even further. Makes logical sense.

One only needs to look at the sphincter twitching the Solomon Island deal caused recently. It was only a commercial deal yet a "red line" has been drawn. Perhaps this is how the Russians view Europe and NATO, multiplied by 100.

xkxlxm · 13-05-2022, 01:06 PM

Yes, we have apparently drawn a 'red line' concerning the Solomons/China deal. That would usually mean that the ones drawing the 'red line' are going to do something about it. I'm still waiting.

**FairmontGS** · 13-05-2022, 06:54 PM

I wonder if Putin has thought this through? Opening new fronts may mean Baltic State/Ukrainian armies on the outskirts of Moscow/St Petersburg very quickly when the Putin Army collapses under a multi-pronged offensive...

Russia to 'take steps' if Finland joins NATO, Putin blames Western sanctions for global economic crisis

Quote:

Russia has warned that it will have to take unspecified "military-technical" steps in response to Finland's decision to join NATO, as Moscow continues to face setbacks in its invasion of Ukraine

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-05-...nato/101062934

MITCHAY · 13-05-2022, 08:09 PM

It's NATO expansion, it's Nazis, or Russia really doesn't have the influence they feel they should or something else or combination of a few. Take your pick

There are rumours about his health and if true that makes more sense than anything to be honest. It seems like to achieve some sort of legacy, and had he rolled Ukraine as easy and quick as he thought he'd achieved it.

It turns out corruption and having yes men is not good for anyone like everywhere else in the world

zilo · 13-05-2022, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fordman1

I think it’s funny how the same “Wack jobs” in the “Pub” are the same “Wack jobs” here.

Post something intelligent...if you can?

zilo · 13-05-2022, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T3rminator

If this is correct, then all Zelenskyy had to do was to say "no" to a club that he wasn't qualified to join anyway, and all this could have been averted.

But he didn't. And NATO didn't say "no" either. Something doesn't add up.

Because it is, and always has been, a proxy war by the United states.

Biden is doing badly in the polls...of course a bit of insecurity is called up.

Never heard of a country changing leaders in the middle of a conflict...it's a strategy to win elections.

Mulva · 13-05-2022, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zilo

...Never heard of a country changing leaders in the middle of a conflict...it's a strategy to win elections.

Neville Chamberlain and Winston Churchill would like a quick word...but WW2 wasn't really much of a conflict, was it?

Itsme · 13-05-2022, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zilo

Because it is, and always has been, a proxy war by the United states.

Biden is doing badly in the polls...of course a bit of insecurity is called up.

Never heard of a country changing leaders in the middle of a conflict...it's a strategy to win elections.

Vietnam war, definitely 4 presidents, maybe a 5th.

Cheers

Mulva · 13-05-2022, 09:54 PM

Plus Germany changed leader just before the end of WW2 too

Reckon we might have changed PM early in WW2 too.

But other than all those times it has happened in several different countries - other than those it has never happened.

If it was about Biden trying to keep his presidency, hasn't he gone a bit early? He doesn't face the vote until 2024, and don't think Russia can hang on if this war were to drag out several years.

Again, Zilo's theory that Biden has outsmarted and outplayed Putin could be on the money. If true then Putin is well out of his depth against Biden, being played like a puppet, Biden making Putin continually punch himself in the balls.

MITCHAY · 13-05-2022, 10:01 PM

I think the ruling on abortion would be a bigger issue for Biden in the midterm polls on top of inflation than this war. It's sad but it's the truth

The US voters generally give a president a second term. This is no comparison as there is no US boots on ground.

This war has been a good "asset recycling program" to use an Aussie term for the US and allies though. Clear out old stock and replenish

Mulva · 13-05-2022, 10:33 PM

Darth Putin: https://twitter.com/DarthPutinKGB/st...7Ctwgr%5Etweet

Quote:

Have threatened Sweden & Finland that them joining NATO means I will have to sink my ships on their coast as well.

PhilT2 · 13-05-2022, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mulva

Darth Putin: https://twitter.com/DarthPutinKGB/st...7Ctwgr%5Etweet

And some Russian tanks could migrate there.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLFbwH_SgJk

oldel · 13-05-2022, 11:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zilo

Because it is, and always has been, a proxy war by the United states.

Biden is doing badly in the polls...of course a bit of insecurity is called up.

Never heard of a country changing leaders in the middle of a conflict...it's a strategy to win elections.

Do you even know what a proxy war is?
For this to be a proxy war either USA backed Ukraine to invade Russia, or Russia is a puppet of the USA and started this war because USA said so.

Neither happened, so you heard the term proxy war and thought it applied when it's a stupid thing to say.

Is this having the same affect as a proxy war? Maybe. But it isn't one and Russia is not a proxy of the USA and Ukraine didn't invade Russia because the USA want that.

A proxy war is when one party sponsors another to start a war and funds it. USA didn't start this war, they warned Russia not to start it. It's not a proxy war, it's not USA starting it.

They have the appetite to screw Russia up though, purely because Russia started it. Because of that it is similar, but it hasn't always been one, because they didn't start it!

Do you know what was the top 3 nuclear powers in 1992?
It featured Ukraine because that's where a lot of soviet nuclear power was. Both USA and Russia had a treaty to protect the sovereign state of Ukraine if they handed all nukes back to Russia. USA is holding to that agreement and Russia is breaking it by invading for oil, gas, other resources and med naval projection.

MITCHAY · 14-05-2022, 12:13 AM

My grandparents migrated to Australia from Hungary after WW2 in the 1950s. She said Russians were just as bad as the Nazis if not worse. So I will not tolerate any BS Nazi crap propaganda from Russia in 2022.

MITCHAY · 14-05-2022, 01:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

My grandparents migrated to Australia from Hungary after WW2 in the 1950s. She said Russians were just as bad as the Nazis if not worse. So I will not tolerate any BS Nazi crap propaganda from Russia in 2022.

It's pretty cool that you can look through the national archives online. Official record for my grandparents right here.

https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/Sear...1429472&isAv=N

PhilT2 · 14-05-2022, 01:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

It's pretty cool that you can look through the national archives online. Official record for my grandparents right here.

https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/Sear...1429472&isAv=N

That link doesn't work for me. Did your grandparents leave before the Hungarian uprising in '56?

MITCHAY · 14-05-2022, 01:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilT2

That link doesn't work for me. Did your grandparents leave before the Hungarian uprising in '56?

Yeah it has a session timeout it seems

Mum was born in '59 in Queanbeyan as a first gen Aussie. They came to Australia under the Australia Austria Assistance Scheme.

MITCHAY · 14-05-2022, 01:46 AM

http://www.fordforums.com.au/photos/...hp?photo=75507

MITCHAY · 14-05-2022, 02:57 AM

The EU has pledged 500 million Euros in military support. Huge amount of support for Ukraine.
Slava Ukraini!

Itsme · 14-05-2022, 03:24 AM

Deleted

**Fordman1** · 14-05-2022, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldel

Do you even know what a proxy war is?
For this to be a proxy war either USA backed Ukraine to invade Russia, or Russia is a puppet of the USA and started this war because USA said so.

Neither happened, so you heard the term proxy war and thought it applied when it's a stupid thing to say.

Is this having the same affect as a proxy war? Maybe. But it isn't one and Russia is not a proxy of the USA and Ukraine didn't invade Russia because the USA want that.

A proxy war is when one party sponsors another to start a war and funds it. USA didn't start this war, they warned Russia not to start it. It's not a proxy war, it's not USA starting it.

They have the appetite to screw Russia up though, purely because Russia started it. Because of that it is similar, but it hasn't always been one, because they didn't start it!

Do you know what was the top 3 nuclear powers in 1992?
It featured Ukraine because that's where a lot of soviet nuclear power was. Both USA and Russia had a treaty to protect the sovereign state of Ukraine if they handed all nukes back to Russia. USA is holding to that agreement and Russia is breaking it by invading for oil, gas, other resources and med naval projection.

Here he is ( Google Aussie Cossack), he’s not an Aussie

T3rminator · 14-05-2022, 01:36 PM

I doubt anyone here really knows what was happening in the background that may or may not have contributed to starting the war. We can only speculate.

We know the US has wanted a regime change in Russia for a long long time. And looking at the amount of money and weapons being thrown into Ukraine at the moment, its hard to believe Ukraine is not being used in some way as a proxy. Call it proxy, bait, sacrificial lamb, whatever, Ukraine seems to be a means to an end between "the west" and the current Russian regime.

Interesting that a handful of countries are seemingly taking the spoils of war without having to fire a single shot.