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Old 28-06-2011, 10:05 AM   #1
krzysiek
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Default Is the LPG excise purely to repay the LPG-rebate?

With the LPG excise of 2.5c/L and increasing for a few years to come, does anyone know if they have passed this based on needing to repay the rebates given out to people? Or are they just taxing it because they can?

Because if they are taxing it (and have passed the bill) based on needing to repay the rebates, then how long will the excise stay in effect for? If it stays in effect for an indefinite amount of time, they're going to be getting much more back from the average rebate that they gave out.

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Old 28-06-2011, 10:31 AM   #2
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Default Re: Is the LPG excise purely to repay the LPG-rebate?

i don't know, but i'm sure any tax is easy to impose, but difficult to get rid of once it's in.
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Old 28-06-2011, 10:37 AM   #3
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Default Re: Is the LPG excise purely to repay the LPG-rebate?

The answer is know the excise was planned before the rebate.
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Old 28-06-2011, 10:44 AM   #4
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Default Re: Is the LPG excise purely to repay the LPG-rebate?

Its still shedloads cheaper that PULP!
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Old 28-06-2011, 11:05 AM   #5
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Default Re: Is the LPG excise purely to repay the LPG-rebate?

I think its because alot of people have moved or are moving to LPG due to prices and thus the Government is losing the excise it receives from petrol. So you'll see if more people continue to take up LPG the the price will continue to increase. I am so surprised in Australia that we don't just get rid of petrol and move to LPG. We have heaps of LPG and I think but could be wrong, its not pegged to a world price
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Old 28-06-2011, 11:15 AM   #6
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Default Re: Is the LPG excise purely to repay the LPG-rebate?

Now with this carbon tax the Government should be pushing all owners with 6cyl plus cars to install LPG conversions.

Best way to do this is the Government should hire qulified LPG installer's to go around and certify LPG conversion workshops. If they dont meet requirements they dont get on the list of approved installer's or do crappy work after fined, licence taken and removed from listing.

That's how they should of done the roof insulation scheme and dont get me started on the school scheme......................
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Old 28-06-2011, 11:25 AM   #7
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Default Re: Is the LPG excise purely to repay the LPG-rebate?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mickyyyy
Now with this carbon tax the Government should be pushing all owners with 6cyl plus cars to install LPG conversions.

Best way to do this is the Government should hire qulified LPG installer's to go around and certify LPG conversion workshops. If they dont meet requirements they dont get on the list of approved installer's or do crappy work after fined, licence taken and removed from listing.

That's how they should of done the roof insulation scheme and dont get me started on the school scheme......................


I just can't see why they don't say to all manufactures that from a certain date all newly produced cars imported or manufactured here must be LPG. That way we have a starting point and they can start to trickly down as used cars and then we slowly get rid of petrol vehicles
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Old 28-06-2011, 11:47 AM   #8
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Default Re: Is the LPG excise purely to repay the LPG-rebate?

If it was to repay what they have forked out then why didnt they start putting it on 5 years ago when they started the rebate. The rebate is reducing but the tax is increasing if it goes on and it won't ever be comming off. There is huge hypocracy in this tax. Why tax a clean fuel when we are being encouraged to use it.
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Old 28-06-2011, 11:55 AM   #9
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Default Re: Is the LPG excise purely to repay the LPG-rebate?

the excise is to go up until it hits 12.5c per litre. it is designed to be similar to the excise on petrol. it will not be coming off.
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Old 28-06-2011, 12:00 PM   #10
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Default Re: Is the LPG excise purely to repay the LPG-rebate?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BLUEYBA
I just can't see why they don't say to all manufactures that from a certain date all newly produced cars imported or manufactured here must be LPG. That way we have a starting point and they can start to trickly down as used cars and then we slowly get rid of petrol vehicles
Wander away from Sydney and you will see why.......

How about legislate that all new cars must be FWD 4 cylinder with a maximum power of 100kw and speed limited to 120km/h?

Or is that also the sort of thing someone who has no idea of what people in all of Australia rather than one small part actually require would say?
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Old 28-06-2011, 12:01 PM   #11
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Default Re: Is the LPG excise purely to repay the LPG-rebate?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polyal
Its still shedloads cheaper that PULP!
Diesel used to be half the price of petrol, not anymore.
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Old 28-06-2011, 12:07 PM   #12
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Default Re: Is the LPG excise purely to repay the LPG-rebate?

Quote:
Originally Posted by flappist
Diesel used to be half the price of petrol, not anymore.
Ill take your word, my memory is diesel has always been around the same as petrol. Which is odd...but hey, our transport system basically runs on it so if your going to make some cash via exercise....

It will take a long time, disaster, or a pretty major tax to get LPG up to PULP in a hurry.

LPG availability is good for the areas in which its used. I would hazzard a generalisation and say most regional areas do not have a great uptake because most of those people use diesel more (with their equipment etc) so no point putting pumps there if its not being used...bit of a catch 22 though if you want people to buy LPG cars.

That being said the taxi fleet alone would make the excise worth while from the govs POV.
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Old 28-06-2011, 12:15 PM   #13
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Default Re: Is the LPG excise purely to repay the LPG-rebate?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polyal
Ill take your word, my memory is diesel has always been around the same as petrol. Which is odd...but hey, our transport system basically runs on it so if your going to make some cash via exercise....

It will take a long time, disaster, or a pretty major tax to get LPG up to PULP in a hurry.

LPG availability is good for the areas in which its used. I would hazzard a generalisation and say most regional areas do not have a great uptake because most of those people use diesel more (with their equipment etc) so no point putting pumps there if its not being used...bit of a catch 22 though if you want people to buy LPG cars.

That being said the taxi fleet alone would make the excise worth while from the govs POV.
I grew up working in a service station owned by my parents, when I was your age diesel was cheap as only trucks and on VERY rare occasions a euroupean car would buy it.

While LPG is nirvana for southeastern city people it is only cheap because it is not taxed as highly.

It is also very difficult to store and transport.
If LPG were to be fair to all Australians then the southeastenrners should have to subsidise the northerners and westeners for that transport cost.

LPG is about 80c/litre here and I have seen it over $1/litre in some places.

So if you add the same tax (which will happen anyway regardless of what they say) and square up the pricing how cheap is it to run your LPG car now?

The ultimate question:

If it cost roughly the same to run your car on LPG or ULP which would you choose?
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Old 28-06-2011, 12:19 PM   #14
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Default Re: Is the LPG excise purely to repay the LPG-rebate?

Of course, the ONLY reason people run LPG is for cost.

Most sane people work out their k's and look at the ROI then go from there. I can remember where my tipping point is, but since I do 800k's per week just for uni then LPG works out way way in my favour..currently.

My first diesel experience was my mates old Pug 504, got it on his P's (well his parents forced it on him..LOL) and talk about a messy process. This was around 2000 so I dont recall the price, but I dont remember him sooking about it either so it couldnt have been that bad.
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Old 28-06-2011, 12:53 PM   #15
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Default Re: Is the LPG excise purely to repay the LPG-rebate?

liberals put this tax on about 10 years ago but put the start date far enouph into the future that they would not get the blame for taxing green cars and the people that run lpg because we cant afford petrol...AAARRRGGGHHH !!
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Old 28-06-2011, 01:07 PM   #16
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Default Re: Is the LPG excise purely to repay the LPG-rebate?

Yeah the announcement for the LPG excise came in about 2003 or 2004, that was the first time APA went into administration
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Old 28-06-2011, 01:11 PM   #17
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Default Re: Is the LPG excise purely to repay the LPG-rebate?

LPG is only cheaper to run in your car if it is less than 2/3 the price of petrol.
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Old 28-06-2011, 01:19 PM   #18
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Default Re: Is the LPG excise purely to repay the LPG-rebate?

I saw a Daihatsu Charade on gas last week. Wonder how often it ever visits a petrol station... Wonder how the acceleration is.... I wonder why they did it lol..

But I am all for gas, my previous XR6 was on LPG and with my job it was very good on the wallet. I can't remember my stats, but I kept a record for work etc.

One day, if prices don't rise, my G6ET will suck gas... (Liquid Injection ;))
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Old 28-06-2011, 01:23 PM   #19
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Default Re: Is the LPG excise purely to repay the LPG-rebate?

Quote:
Originally Posted by davenl5l
liberals put this tax on about 10 years ago but put the start date far enouph into the future that they would not get the blame for taxing green cars and the people that run lpg because we cant afford petrol...AAARRRGGGHHH !!
Did it ever occur to you that there is a reason why you can't afford petrol now?
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Old 28-06-2011, 01:40 PM   #20
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Default Re: Is the LPG excise purely to repay the LPG-rebate?

Please chim in

http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=11335341
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Old 28-06-2011, 02:27 PM   #21
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Default Re: Is the LPG excise purely to repay the LPG-rebate?

Quote:
Originally Posted by flappist
Wander away from Sydney and you will see why.......

How about legislate that all new cars must be FWD 4 cylinder with a maximum power of 100kw and speed limited to 120km/h?

Or is that also the sort of thing someone who has no idea of what people in all of Australia rather than one small part actually require would say?


Sure I understand what you're saying but how is it any harder to get LPG out there than fuel? Is there something I don't know about? This could be phased in and you could also give places time to get the required infrastructure.
I would much rather drive a 6 cylinder LPG than a 4 cylinder
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Old 28-06-2011, 02:42 PM   #22
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Default Re: Is the LPG excise purely to repay the LPG-rebate?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BLUEYBA
Sure I understand what you're saying but how is it any harder to get LPG out there than fuel? Is there something I don't know about? This could be phased in and you could also give places time to get the required infrastructure.
I would much rather drive a 6 cylinder LPG than a 4 cylinder
How is it harder?

LPG requires a special tanker for transport and then requires special tanks to be fitted at servos to hold it.

Who pays for all this? YOU?

And what makes you think we can supply all of the cars on the road with LPG?
Less than 1% of cars are LPG so you would have to increase production by more than 100 times (10,000%).
Are you sure there is enough LPG available?

And the reason for this? To save a TINY amount of money.

Other reasons why pure LPG is impractical in regional areas.
1) You can't carry extra in jerry cans.
2) You can't fill a car on the side of the road if you run out.
3) You can't move fuel from one vehicle to another in an emergency.
4) It is illegal to work on your car unless you have a gas license.

So you really can't travel more than a few hundred km from a servo or stay out for extended periods and if you run out you are stuffed.

Again, I have still to hear a reason for LPG other than cost (oh except for the greenie crap that it is "cleaner" which will be ok until petrol is gone and then LPG will be evil)
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Old 28-06-2011, 02:51 PM   #23
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Default Re: Is the LPG excise purely to repay the LPG-rebate?

Cost is primarily the reason why anything gets or doesnt get done. What other reason is needed?

The "all cars should be LPG" is obviously unworkable.

I dont save a tiny amount of money. Per week I am saving give or take $80. Pay back is very quick.
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Old 28-06-2011, 03:20 PM   #24
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Default Re: Is the LPG excise purely to repay the LPG-rebate?

No, it's because they have a captive audience now.

The LPG rebate made thousands and thousands of people who would normally never consider LPG to convert thier cars...hell, we almost did...glad we didn't.
Now that heaps more people have LPG powered vehicles, it's safe to raise the excise as much as they like to charge extortionate prices for LPG.

We export the stuff in bulk for a few cents a liter, yet charge our own public a price waaaaay out of proportion to what the stuff costs to make per liter. LPG only makes sense when it's half the price of petrol or less. It used to be down around a third the price, or even less.
And yes, diesel used to be dirt cheap...those of us who've been driving for up to thirty years will remember the way the pricing worked. When I started, I vividly remember petrol being 36 cents per liter, diesel was only about 18 cents a liter (as said above, trucks, some old fourbies, and the very rare European car would use it), and LPG was only about 8 to 10 cents a liter. I remember the LPG price as I briefly toyed with the (at the time) novel idea of converting my Valiant Charger to LPG, as I was spending over $50 a week on petrol...

As more people take up the use of LPG, the excise will rise to slap the cash cow on the bum. Same with E10...it's artificially kept lower than normal unleaded by taxpayer subsidies.
However, wait until some people get thier way and normal unleaded is phased out (because deliberately making your car get worse economy is somehow better for the environment... ), and once people are a captive audience, we'll see the subsidy removed and the true cost of the stuff will be revealed.
Same with LPG conversions...there was a massive take-up of that idea, but the popularity has dropped off now that the price difference now makes it far less economical than it was before. The sums don't add up on each and every car...it works for some people and the payback is pretty quick, but it depends on the quality of the conversion, and some were pretty dire. If for your particular vehicle the economy on LPG drops below a certain percentage of unleaded and you're only saving a small bit each week (which you could do by modifying your driving habits or keeping your car well serviced anyway), you may as well not bother and just keep running unleaded.

Only blind freddy never foresaw the excise on LPG being raised.
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Old 28-06-2011, 03:27 PM   #25
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Default Re: Is the LPG excise purely to repay the LPG-rebate?

Good discussion going. I won't go into any points here, but the one flaw which I currently see with this system is as below.

If they are taxing LPG and claiming that they need to repay themselves for all of the rebates they have out, then that is very wrong. At some point, when the tax is at it's maximum of 12.5c/L there will come a time where the debt to the Government for the LPG rebates they gave out will have been paid back in full.

At that point, what will happen? If we have paid the debt back in full, we're still going to be paying the 12.5c/L tax indefinitely, which in the end just turns into a whole lot of extra money for the Government for the wrong reason - because the reason was to repay the initial debt of the LPG rebates, but after that point the tax should be dropped (which I doubt it will).

Thoughts?
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Old 28-06-2011, 05:18 PM   #26
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Default Re: Is the LPG excise purely to repay the LPG-rebate?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polyal
Cost is primarily the reason why anything gets or doesnt get done. What other reason is needed?

The "all cars should be LPG" is obviously unworkable.

I dont save a tiny amount of money. Per week I am saving give or take $80. Pay back is very quick.
$80 per week = $4k per year.

In 5 years you save $20k (in theory)

Meanwhile you have lost $50k on your new GT-P ($30k on your XR6), used $8k worth of tyres, paid $5k in rego etc.

OR drive a bubble car as it just getting you to uni and back and save just as much in fuel, much lower resale loss, much lower tyre cost, much lower rego cost etc.

Remember it is NEW cars not 10 year old clunkers that are the subject here.

You also drive on the same route daily withing an urban area, just like a taxi really......
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Old 28-06-2011, 05:34 PM   #27
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Default Re: Is the LPG excise purely to repay the LPG-rebate?

Quote:
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How is it harder?

LPG requires a special tanker for transport and then requires special tanks to be fitted at servos to hold it.

Who pays for all this? YOU?

And what makes you think we can supply all of the cars on the road with LPG?
Less than 1% of cars are LPG so you would have to increase production by more than 100 times (10,000%).
Are you sure there is enough LPG available?

And the reason for this? To save a TINY amount of money.

Other reasons why pure LPG is impractical in regional areas.
1) You can't carry extra in jerry cans.
2) You can't fill a car on the side of the road if you run out.
3) You can't move fuel from one vehicle to another in an emergency.
4) It is illegal to work on your car unless you have a gas license.

So you really can't travel more than a few hundred km from a servo or stay out for extended periods and if you run out you are stuffed.

Again, I have still to hear a reason for LPG other than cost (oh except for the greenie crap that it is "cleaner" which will be ok until petrol is gone and then LPG will be evil)
Can't say I've really noticed any LPG vehicles out here. We're only 170km inland from Rockhampton (where I do see a lot), but a "run to the shops" for us is a 40km round trip and you'd have to watch your gas very carefully. Dual fuel would be the only option and definately not dedicated LPG, which is the most efficient. I've also seen some cars at Emerald (about 100km in the other direction inland), but it's a fair sized town. Heading further inland, can;t really say I saw any at all around Barcy, Longreach, and on to Winton.
All the reasons you mention above would cover that...

Great for the city, impractical for country areas, and always will be.
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Old 28-06-2011, 05:59 PM   #28
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Default Re: Is the LPG excise purely to repay the LPG-rebate?

Quote:
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Again, I have still to hear a reason for LPG other than cost
More torque.

Better fuel burn, which then equals cleaner engine.

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Old 28-06-2011, 07:21 PM   #29
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Default Re: Is the LPG excise purely to repay the LPG-rebate?

Quote:
Originally Posted by flappist
$80 per week = $4k per year.

In 5 years you save $20k (in theory)

Meanwhile you have lost $50k on your new GT-P ($30k on your XR6), used $8k worth of tyres, paid $5k in rego etc.

OR drive a bubble car as it just getting you to uni and back and save just as much in fuel, much lower resale loss, much lower tyre cost, much lower rego cost etc.

Remember it is NEW cars not 10 year old clunkers that are the subject here.

You also drive on the same route daily withing an urban area, just like a taxi really......
Ok your assuming again.

This thread has nothing to do with rego (Im sorry your state rips you guys off), depreciation (yes you seem to enjoy it) or running costs (non fuel) or the age of cars.

The excise doesnt sudden evaporate because you drive an older car...its constant. Which you know so I dont know why you are bothering down that path, or this thread when its quite clear that you just dont like LPG (for whatever reason)

For many people it makes perfect sense. Remember products are built for the majority of the population and if the rest catch on because the can or want to then great.

And not that it matters but since you brought it up, my route (on average) consists of 60% @ 100kph and the rest urban. We also own a four pot of the same vintage as the LPG car we have and its factory ADR combined cycle is 7.9l/100.

I know for a fact that under the same condition on the same route my LPG car is cheaper to run. If it was 100% urban it might be a different story, but its not, and I use the Falcon for long distance driving because thats what it is good at. I am not cramped, and can carry more stuff, its not revving its tits off, I can tow, the kids have room in the back etc etc

So yes its my taxi in essence, and a damn fine one at that. Its saves me money and save me driving a bubble car. In the mean time I can spend money on other things that actually matter, not fueling my car. The car is nothing but the opposite of impractical.
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Old 28-06-2011, 07:51 PM   #30
atec77
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 3,569
Default Re: Is the LPG excise purely to repay the LPG-rebate?

Quote:
Originally Posted by flappist
How is it harder?

LPG requires a special tanker for transport and then requires special tanks to be fitted at servos to hold it.

Who pays for all this? YOU?

And what makes you think we can supply all of the cars on the road with LPG?
Less than 1% of cars are LPG so you would have to increase production by more than 100 times (10,000%).
Are you sure there is enough LPG available?

And the reason for this? To save a TINY amount of money.

Other reasons why pure LPG is impractical in regional areas.
1) You can't carry extra in jerry cans.
2) You can't fill a car on the side of the road if you run out.
3) You can't move fuel from one vehicle to another in an emergency.
4) It is illegal to work on your car unless you have a gas license.

So you really can't travel more than a few hundred km from a servo or stay out for extended periods and if you run out you are stuffed.

Again, I have still to hear a reason for LPG other than cost (oh except for the greenie crap that it is "cleaner" which will be ok until petrol is gone and then LPG will be evil)
Lpg was a waste product and some still is being burnt off , a lot is sold to china for a few cents a litre and we over pay for the rest , in real terms we could run a lot more cars on gas than currently with ease
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