Muscle: Is it Carburetted, or Fuel Injected?

XCwillo · 29-01-2011, 10:25 AM

What are your thoughts people.
Early muscle cars, are they meant to be kept carburetted to have the spine shivering idle note and general sound that just cant be reproduced nowadays by computer managed fuel injection.
Or is there no difference in a Fuel Injected engine swap, saying that Muscle looks muscle is.

Thought came to me because I've been offered to have my 250 Crossflow worked with tripple webbers and the lot, or swap it for a FG XR6 engine.

IMO it would be a bit dissapointing to see a fuel injected engine in a classic. There's just something about carby fed engines that give them their own personality, and they look like a work of art if done right.

geckoGT · 29-01-2011, 10:31 AM

Go the triple webers, much better look with the bonnet up than a modern EFI in a car with classic lines like yours. Bit of a bugger to tune though.

FNQracing · 29-01-2011, 10:31 AM

A modern F.Inj motor does add some practicality to an older chariot, but does take away alot of its appeal IMHO. Horses for courses. There are plenty of classics getting around with modern engines I'd be happy to call my own, but would personally prefer a motor that matches the cars period.

**redxm** · 29-01-2011, 10:53 AM

cant beat the induction noise on a carbed engine

cheap · 29-01-2011, 10:57 AM

It is impossible to reproduce the induction noise from Webber side draught carbs with EFI, It is a unique sound, you will be heard from along way away. At low revs on a light throttle you can just about hear each down stroke sucking air through the carb. Having said that they are a pain in the backside to get tuned and keep tuned. It is difficult to get linkages without some play in them. A very strong return spring (a couple of return springs) helps overcome some of the play in the linkages.

ratter · 29-01-2011, 11:01 AM

Old skool look can be acheived with modern technology and it would bring more enjoyable and reliable driving.
Idle note is controlled by the camshaft, although a camshaft lump can be tuned (if you wished) down to a certain extent with EFI.
Induction roar is based on how much throttle blade area you have and this could be greater with efi as it does not have to abe as accurate as carby to drive correctly.

flappist · 29-01-2011, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XCwillo

What are your thoughts people.
Early muscle cars, are they meant to be kept carburetted to have the spine shivering idle note and general sound that just cant be reproduced nowadays by computer managed fuel injection.
Or is there no difference in a Fuel Injected engine swap, saying that Muscle looks muscle is.

Thought came to me because I've been offered to have my 250 Crossflow worked with tripple webbers and the lot, or swap it for a FG XR6 engine.

IMO it would be a bit dissapointing to see a fuel injected engine in a classic. There's just something about carby fed engines that give them their own personality, and they look like a work of art if done right.

You do realise that your XC must comply with ADR27a don't you?

xalent · 29-01-2011, 11:10 AM

EFI or mechanical fuel injection is fine on muscle nowadays

302 XC · 29-01-2011, 11:12 AM

Triple webers would be a nightmare to tune and run for a daily
Economy , nope
Really depends on your choice
250 X Flow XC with triple webers on a near stock motor would get smashed by an FG XR6 motor
There would be many mods required to convert to the FG XR6 motor to comply in the XC

T3man · 29-01-2011, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XCwillo

What are your thoughts people.
Early muscle cars, are they meant to be kept carburetted to have the spine shivering idle note and general sound that just cant be reproduced nowadays by computer managed fuel injection.
Or is there no difference in a Fuel Injected engine swap, saying that Muscle looks muscle is.

Thought came to me because I've been offered to have my 250 Crossflow worked with tripple webbers and the lot, or swap it for a FG XR6 engine.

IMO it would be a bit dissapointing to see a fuel injected engine in a classic. There's just something about carby fed engines that give them their own personality, and they look like a work of art if done right.

And I was thinking you were talking about MUSCLE CARS.

Jim Goose · 29-01-2011, 11:22 AM

Depends what you want?
If you want reliability, easy starts on a cold morning, good fuel economy... go with fitting the XR6 engine. However just remember you will need to fit all the emissions, wiring harness, computer, modifiy your fuel tank (even down to the nozzle hole) etc...

Tripple webbers while sounding nice will be an absolute pain in the ****....

Or you can keep what you got, save money and some heartache

**Falcon Coupe** · 29-01-2011, 12:07 PM

The FG six will be more powerful and use less fuel. You would need the wiring and engine management gear, also a cat in the exhaust to comply.

The triple webbers are illegal on an ADR27a car, any Cop who knows his rules could put you off the road.

flappist · 29-01-2011, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Falcon Coupe

The FG six will be more powerful and use less fuel. You would need the wiring and engine management gear, also a cat in the exhaust to comply.

The triple webbers are illegal on an ADR27a car, any Cop who knows his rules could put you off the road.

And both the OIC & 2IC of traffic here are former motor mechanics with one being an classic vehicle restorer (bikes). They know their jobs well.

Ford_The_Win · 29-01-2011, 12:19 PM

It will taint the originality of the car, but if you're using it as a daily then I'd definitely rip out the old crossflow and drop in the FG motor. When it comes time to fill up, it'll seem like you've bought a 4 cyl when comparing the fuel economy of the EFI motor to the old carby one. And that ute will fly when you put your foot down, with over twice as many killerwasps.

The computers and wiring are a headf*** but as others have mentioned, you'll have a hard time getting around regulations when it comes to the triple webbers.

edit: Consider it like muscle by lifting weights, vs using steroids

geckoGT · 29-01-2011, 12:34 PM

Yep, sorry about the ADR as I forgot to consider that. You need an earlier car to go for a triple webber.

**Polyal** · 29-01-2011, 12:41 PM

Oh come on, Id put money on it a few of the older members here certainly didn't care about ADR's when modding their first cars. We all mod our cars today and once you do that say bye bye to any Euro compliance in most cases (yes yes it can be done).

Muscle can come in many forms, its been talked about many times before but there was definitely a muscle car era, its not now. I dont know what you would call it but even though todays cars would wipe the floor with old school muscle (talking stock here), they certainly dont deliver the same overall experience. That is a good and bad thing depending on your perspective.

As for your ute, how often do you drive it? Injection brings in most cases reliability and efficiencies that would wont get in a carby setup, even if it is setup perfectly.

But you will get a buzz out of the carb setup you are talking about, you will also have to pimp yourself to pay for fuel.

If you want to take the punt then go ahead, and have a stock system ready to switch back to.

XCwillo · 29-01-2011, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flappist

You do realise that your XC must comply with ADR27a don't you?

Not a clue, never had to check up on those rules but now I know, thanks!
... What exactly is ADR27a? I'm at working at Cold Rock at the moment so im in and out typing and cant really check it up!

Quote:

Originally Posted by T3man

And I was thinking you were talking about MUSCLE CARS.

I am?
The question was

Quote:

Originally Posted by XCwillo

Early muscle cars, are they meant to be kept carburetted ... Or is there no difference in a Fuel Injected engine swap, saying that Muscle looks muscle is.

Im not specifically talking about my car

Quote:

Originally Posted by XCwillo

The Thought came to me because I've been offered to have my 250 Crossflow worked with tripple webbers and the lot, or swap it for a FG XR6 engine.

@ Polyal
I drive the ute everyday. Paying for petrol every few days on very low wages that i get is just normal for me now

T3man · 29-01-2011, 12:42 PM

If you actually want to turn it into something with "muscle" I have for you a nice 351 Cleveland running straight LPG. No worries on ADRs there; and less expensive to run than your current motor with whatever petrol system you might choose to put on it. Oh, and did I mention it will then have some REAL muscle? LOL.

PS. I was just taking the p!ss mate 'cos you asked about muscle cars and then spoke about the triple carby thing on your 250 crossflow.

PPS. I am serious about the 351C though. It is a very easy swap into your car - all that has to be upgraded to comply legally is the rear end - LSD and disc brakes are mandatory. Oh, and front springs.

castellan · 29-01-2011, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XCwillo

What are your thoughts people.
Early muscle cars, are they meant to be kept carburetted to have the spine shivering idle note and general sound that just cant be reproduced nowadays by computer managed fuel injection.
Or is there no difference in a Fuel Injected engine swap, saying that Muscle looks muscle is.

Thought came to me because I've been offered to have my 250 Crossflow worked with tripple webbers and the lot, or swap it for a FG XR6 engine.

IMO it would be a bit dissapointing to see a fuel injected engine in a classic. There's just something about carby fed engines that give them their own personality, and they look like a work of art if done right.

With EFI you could reproduce the same sound it's just that the EFI can be tuned to get rid of it.

250 motor could be turbo ed but i would still go for a 351 any day.

**DJR-351** · 29-01-2011, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Falcon Coupe

The triple webbers are illegal on an ADR27a car, any Cop who knows his rules could put you off the road.

Exactly, and has been mentioned above tuning them is a pain in the bum...
They came stock on my E49 and when they are running correctly they are hard to beat, but they require constant tuning to keep them like that and unless you know what you are doing you will end up paying $$ to someone who does....I tried doing them myself one day, what a disaster

...after that i used to take the car to a guy at Borg Warner in Vic Park WA, he was a magician with them...

A lot of guys (myself included eventually) back in the day used to pull the Webers off and replace them with a new manifold/Holley setup for this very reason...
Funnily enough a few of my mates had XU1s with the triple SUs, they seemed to have it a bit easier when it came to tuning them...

XCwillo · 29-01-2011, 12:48 PM

Oh guys don't get me wrong. I'd stick a big dirty Clevo in any day. Naturally aspirated, lightly worked and a simple exhaust would just be a dream.
But P plate laws in all their wisdom only allow me to have a 6 banger... Even if it is more powerful then a V8 :S
So a steroid wridden 6 it is!

Mr Hardware · 29-01-2011, 12:50 PM

T3 man is right, go with a LPG 351 over a fg six any day.
If i were you i'd just put up with it for now, perhaps LPG it

**Polyal** · 29-01-2011, 12:51 PM

You will need to do your maths mate.

A compromise might even be an E series XR6 engine, or AU if you can stretch it. IIRC these are slightly easier to retro fit than a B series keeping length, height and electrics in mind.

That or suck it up until your off your P's, save the cash then dump the V8 in. But if you still have the car by the time your off your P's ill be surprised, I think I went through 3 cars by then and all my mates were similar.

XCwillo · 29-01-2011, 01:02 PM

Oh the Maths has been done, trust me.
The purpose is just cruising, sounding, and looking great.
The whole car is getting rebuilt next month, the only thing im getting stuck on is the engine conversion, in the end its up to me. There's no limit on money.
The fact that Webbers are illegal on my car doesn't exactly phase me, might stick with the Holley tho since I've worked up a knack for tuning them pretty well!

flappist · 29-01-2011, 01:09 PM

Muscle car running on LPG, sort of like the hot Thai chick with a bulge in her pants.....something is just wrong about it.

As soon as a muscle car is converted to LPG you may as well fit a 6 speed auto and convert it to front wheel drive, it is not a muscle car anymore, it just looks like one......

4Vman · 29-01-2011, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flappist

Muscle car running on LPG, sort of like the hot Thai chick with a bulge in her pants.....something is just wrong about it.

As soon as a muscle car is converted to LPG you may as well fit a 6 speed auto and convert it to front wheel drive, it is not a muscle car anymore, it just looks like one......

LOL.

Polyal, do we want people to give good sound advice or just "anything goes" advice??

Now more than ever before keeping your car on the safe side of ADR compliance can mean the difference between having transport or walking.... and it wont get any better..

geckoGT · 29-01-2011, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

LOL.

Polyal, do we want people to give good sound advice or just "anything goes" advice??

Now more than ever before keeping your car on the safe side of ADR compliance can mean the difference between having transport or walking.... and it wont get any better..

Stop making sense, no room for that here.

T3man · 29-01-2011, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flappist

Muscle car running on LPG, sort of like the hot Thai chick with a bulge in her pants.....something is just wrong about it.

As soon as a muscle car is converted to LPG you may as well fit a 6 speed auto and convert it to front wheel drive, it is not a muscle car anymore, it just looks like one......

Well it currently has a 250 so it ain't no muscle car by any stretch. My 351C on straight LPG can embarass many a so-called muscle car. WTF has the type of fuel got to do with it?

As for autos ... many had 3 speed autos back in the day - did that make them less of a muscle car? A 6 speed has to be a great idea in an old muscle car I'd reckon. I might put one in the P6 one day.

4Vman · 29-01-2011, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geckoGT

Stop making sense, no room for that here.

sorry.. i don't know what got into me...!!!

**DJR-351** · 29-01-2011, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T3man

As for autos ... many had 3 speed autos back in the day - did that make them less of a muscle car?

My old 66' Pillarless Impala Hardtop had a 396ci backed by a 2 speed auto, plenty of muscle....