Ford cutting EV production

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by au2000

It seems the electric vehicle segment is now finally seeing the results of customers realising that EVs have their place but are not a be all for everyone, battery reliability seems to also be creating issues for some buyers too in relation to risks of thermal runaway.
It’s safe to say I think that EV and ICE will both have a place for a long time yet and it’s probably why makers like Toyota have not fully jumped into the EV segment yet perhaps?

Some facts from the NRMA to put your mind at ease

https://www.mynrma.com.au/electric-v...n%20the%20road.

Electric vehicle fire consultancy EV FireSafe notes in the video below that only 40% of EV fires involve the lithium-ion battery. It says there have been just seven EV battery fires in Australia including the above incident out of the 120,000 battery electric and plug-in hybrid electric vehicles on the road. In all cases, the battery fires were caused by damage to the battery pack: by arson, home fires, road collision or impact from road debris.

And this

Some other figures to note include:

A study conducted by Western Sydney University in July 2023 titled "Fire Incidents, Trends, and Risk Mitigation Framework of Electrical Vehicle Cars in Australia" suggests EV fires are even less frequent: according to the researcher's methodology, Australia experiences approximately six EV fires per million EVs, comparable to the global average. This research suggests that if EV uptake follows the projected trend of reaching 1.7 million by 2030, there will be just 9-10 EV fire incidents in Australia that year.
Of 114 lithium-ion battery fires attended by Fire and Rescue NSW between January and July 2023, the bulk of these were not in electric cars, but were related to portable batteries, e-scooters, and e-bicycles. Note, this article refers to electric passenger and light commercial vehicles (LCVs) only. It does not refer to Light Electric Vehicles (LEVs) like e-bikes and e-scooters which present a vastly different fire risk profile.
A 2022 analysis by insurance company AutoinsuranceEZ showed that based on US-based National Transport and Safety Board data, ICE vehicles are 60 times more likely to catch fire than electric vehicles and hybrid vehicles are 138 times more likely to catch fire (it is not clear how the analysis defines plug-in hybrids.)
Nevertheless, electric vehicle batteries pose particular safety risks. But, there are strict regulations to address risk factors of EV batteries and the high-voltage cables that connect them to a car's powertrain.

[Vekgib]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Does anyone here actually enjoy the experience of buying new cars? Its such a pain in the ***, the industry has been dragging its feet refusing to create better customer experiences.

Piece of ****. Bought two cars in October 2021. Both sitting in the Toyota showroom. Just said to the sales lady "We'll take those". Drove away in them 48 hours later.
Bought another one in May this year. Same Toyota dealership. Same sales lady.
Easy

[Syndrome]

Originally Posted by Vekgib

Piece of ****. Bought two cars in October 2021. Both sitting in the Toyota showroom. Just said to the sales lady "We'll take those". Drove away in them 48 hours later.
Bought another one in May this year. Same Toyota dealership. Same sales lady.
Easy

Must have been because of your mojo..............

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Also Ford is market leader with the Thailand Specials, it can justify its Ranger price because its priced similarly to competitors and its the best vehicle in its class, hands down. Don't interpret this as me changing my opinions on Thailand Specials, I still think they're a junk platform/vehicle at their price points.

The prices commanded by Hilux/Ranger have confounded many for years but the fact that there are so many return buyers tells us the market has accepted pricing.

An interesting point I’m hearing recently is that buyers now saying that Hilux and Prado are really living in the past and testing buyers patience with older interiors. Ranger and Everest newer and fresher vehicles are hitting their marks and winning strong sales.

However, when it comes to EV they've got no experience and they're marketing themselves like its a premium product when really they've got absolutely no runs on the board compared to the established market leader (Tesla).

If I was responsible for pricing at Ford Australia I'd be trying to undercut the Model Y and if they can't because of dealership network then the next thing I'd be looking at is launching our EV range through agency model only.

That $15,000 price gap is not on dealers - that’s all Ford just using the European pricing where Tesla prices the Y much dearer than here and in North America. That lack of price sensitivity is typical of Ford head off thinking - they have no idea.

Ford dealerships keep their access to ICE, but with Ford EVs it’s ala Tesla and maybe that allows them to offer a lower price while making more money by cutting out the middle man.

As I said earlier, apart for obvious dealer markups, Ford basically gives dealers less than $1,000 per vehicle they sell,
more equity on $70,000 and $80,000 vehicles would see a marked difference in service to customers.

Oh and if you have a warranty issue and would prefer to deal with someone at a warehouse, then good luck with that…..

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by jpd80

The prices commanded by Hilux/Ranger have confounded many for years but the fact that there are so many return buyers tells us the market has accepted pricing.

An interesting point I’m hearing recently is that buyers now saying that Hilux and Prado are really living in the past and testing buyers patience with older interiors. Ranger and Everest newer and fresher vehicles are hitting their marks and winning strong sales.


That $15,000 price gap is not on dealers - that’s all Ford just using the European pricing where Tesla prices the Y much dearer than here and in North America. That lack of price sensitivity is typical of Ford head off thinking - they have no idea.


As I said earlier, apart for obvious dealer markups, Ford basically gives dealers less than $1,000 per vehicle they sell,
more equity on $70,000 and $80,000 vehicles would see a marked difference in service to customers.

Oh and if you have a warranty issue and would prefer to deal with someone at a warehouse, then good luck with that…..

Yeah, because Ford Australia is well known for being great to deal with when it comes to warranty problems - Focus/Fiesta DSG fiasco anyone?

The Federal Court has declared, by consent, that Ford Motor Company of Australia Limited (Ford) engaged in unconscionable conduct in the way it dealt with complaints about PowerShift transmission (PST) cars, and ordered Ford to pay $10 million in penalties.

The Court held that Ford’s conduct in responding to consumer complaints about Fiesta, Focus and EcoSport vehicles fitted with PST between 1 May 2015 and 29 February 2016 was unconscionable

Consumers who purchased Ford vehicles with PST made complaints to Ford and its dealers about their car’s excessive clutch shudder, excessive noisiness from the transmission, delayed acceleration and excessive shuddering and jerking when accelerating. 37 per cent of these vehicles had at least one clutch replacement.

“Ford’s $10 million penalty is one of the largest handed down under the Australian Consumer Law and reflects the seriousness of Ford’s conduct. Ford knew that its vehicles had three separate quality issues, but dealt with affected customers in a way which the Court has declared to be unconscionable,” ACCC Chairman Rod Sims said.

Ford communicated with its dealers about the quality issues on multiple occasions, but did not provide adequate information about the quality issues to the customers who complained to Ford about their vehicles.

“Despite knowing that shuddering was a symptom of the quality issues with the vehicles, Ford frequently told customers that shuddering was the result of the customer’s driving style. Ford knew that the symptoms of the quality issues with the vehicles were experienced intermittently, but required customers to demonstrate them on demand in the presence of a dealer in order for repairs to be undertaken,” Mr Sims said.

“In most cases, Ford refused to provide a refund or no-cost replacement vehicle to consumers, even after vehicles had undergone multiple repairs that had not resolved consumers’ complaints.

https://www.accc.gov.au/media-releas...onable-conduct

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Yeah, because Ford Australia is well known for being great to deal with when it comes to warranty problems - Focus/Fiesta DSG fiasco anyone?

Actuality, apart from the people affected, the buying public probably aren’t
even aware of problems that occurred with a Focus sold eight years ago.

As bad of a problem as the powershyte was, the saving grace was that the
Focus wasn’t all that popular, I can claim saving at least six buyers by
convincing them to buy a Mazda 3 instead.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Actuality, apart from the people affected, the buying public probably aren’t

even aware of problems that occurred with a Focus sold eight years ago.



As bad of a problem as the powershyte was, the saving grace was that the

Focus wasn’t all that popular, I can claim saving at least six buyers by

convincing them to buy a Mazda 3 instead.

I don't know about that. Even non car people I knew heard about the Powershift issues. Focus never recovered from that fiasco.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Actuality, apart from the people affected, the buying public probably aren’t
even aware of problems that occurred with a Focus sold eight years ago.

As bad of a problem as the powershyte was, the saving grace was that the
Focus wasn’t all that popular, I can claim saving at least six buyers by
convincing them to buy a Mazda 3 instead.

Thats not what you were implying in your post though, its got nothing to do with the public being aware of warranty issues of something that happened 8 years ago - you implied that dealing with warranty issues under the agency/online model was going to be problematic.

So I posted up evidence of a very prominent case with Ford Australia, with the highest fine ever handed down by the ACCC as well as pointing out their dealership network being deliberately difficult to deal with for warranty issues.

What they did was the oldest trick in the book, you just make the process so onerous/difficult that people give up.

[PooDog]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Yeah, because Ford Australia is well known for being great to deal with when it comes to warranty problems - Focus/Fiesta DSG fiasco anyone?



https://www.accc.gov.au/media-releas...onable-conduct

That's half the reason why I won't spend 70-80k on a Ranger ......like how they were going to fix the diff in my XR8.....oh we can replace it but our experience tells us it will end up whining worse WTF

[Ben73]

On the topic of fires I wonder if they Luton airport fire cause will ever be released to the public.
They were trying really hard to make sure everyone knew it was a diesel vehicle even though they also said they had no information about the fire at that time.

[whynot]

I too was interested to read in the troubles that Ford US are having in selling EV. But it is not only Ford having difficulties. Volkswagen in Europe are in serious trouble with their EV sales. GM are “moderating” their plan for new EV models, and even Mercedes has noted that the EV market is 'brutal'.

In one way, the surplus of EV can be viewed as a good thing. It will focus the minds of the car industry to more innovation to reduce the costs of EV production. To the EV fanbois (and I include myself in this grouping), it will be a cautionary note that not everyone shares their love of shiny, new, expensive toys. As a first pass, the “EV early adopters” market is a lot smaller than first thought in this price bracket.

For ICE proponents, there is little comfort in this either. If (at the time of writing) the issues in the Middle East conflagrate into a regional war, the price of liquid fuels will go into the stratosphere. Resulting in a renewed rush of EV sales.

As I have said a number of times before … the transition from one technology to another is often a long, windy, bumpy road. For example, take the now ubiquitous mobile phone. They were first introduced in Australia in 1981. It took 10 years to have 1% penetration into the market. It took a further 30 years for the population usage of mobile phones to reach 50% (noting that sources vary on when this occurred). But still, even 50 years later mobile phone usage is just over 80%. Ditto the conversion of railway from steam engines to diesel. It took about 45 years from the introduction of the first diesel train until the last steam engine in Australia was phased out.

The great news in all of this is that various manufacturers are trying varying approaches; EV, PHEV, ICE and green hydrogen.

The automobile is not dead yet. (If The Greens have their way, we will be living in little communities, walking everywhere, and catching public transport.)

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by whynot

The automobile is not dead yet. (If The Greens have their way, we will be living in little communities, walking everywhere, and catching public transport.)

and riding bicycles.

I'll continue driving my ICE vehicles when they are needed but whats wrong with riding a bike, using public transport and walking. It's not like we have to justify the cost of rego. (or do we)

EV's are great but they still don't address to biggest problems in cities, gridlock and congestion.
If anything users will probably use them more to justify the cost of ownership.

Personal transport has its place but maybe we could all think a little harder about how often we need to use it and for what reason.
For every person you see walking, riding a bike, or sitting on a bus/train is one less single occupant car on the road, freeing up space for others who have to drive.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

and riding bicycles.

I'll continue driving my ICE vehicles when they are needed but whats wrong with riding a bike, using public transport and walking. It's not like we have to justify the cost of rego. (or do we)

EV's are great but they still don't address to biggest problems in cities, gridlock and congestion.
If anything users will probably use them more to justify the cost of ownership.

Personal transport has its place but maybe we could all think a little harder about how often we need to use it and for what reason.
For every person you see walking, riding a bike, or sitting on a bus/train is one less single occupant car on the road, freeing up space for others who have to drive.

A lot of that has to do with poor town planning encouraging car use for short trips and lack of walking/cycling infrastructure as well as lack of public transport services or poor integration.

Melbourne's western suburbs lack rail infrastructure and then they think buses every half an hour that turn up late all the time and go down the congested western freeway are an adequate substitute.

If I want to go to the city my closest train station is 16km away, then the train only stops there once every hour in peak times and once every second hour in off peak - only takes me 50 minutes door to Melbourne CBD via car.

[kevino]

Hmmm a quick timetable search shows during the day a train ex Sunbury every forty minutes and just a few km south a train every 20 mins from Watergardens

So if we say 15 min drive then 44 min from Sunbury to Melb Central is a little over an hour.
Compared to 50 min by car
If there’s no incidents accidents or motorway congestion
And please tell where do you park said car in Melb cbd and at what cost?

To my mind car to Sunbury train to City is correct option as it saves racking up another 100 km or so on the speedo eliminates fuel cost and cuts out a potentially high parking cost

If more convenient frequent train times are an issue drive to Watergardens

Please explain

[kevino]

Jeepers creepers allow 25 min to drive to Sunbury add train 44 equals 1 hour 9 min vs 50 in the car
What’s 20 minutes extra ?

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by kevino

Hmmm a quick timetable search shows during the day a train ex Sunbury every forty minutes and just a few km south a train every 20 mins from Watergardens

So if we say 15 min drive then 44 min from Sunbury to Melb Central is a little over an hour.
Compared to 50 min by car
If there’s no incidents accidents or motorway congestion
And please tell where do you park said car in Melb cbd and at what cost?

To my mind car to Sunbury train to City is correct option as it saves racking up another 100 km or so on the speedo eliminates fuel cost and cuts out a potentially high parking cost

If more convenient frequent train times are an issue drive to Watergardens

Please explain

If I drive to Sunbury I'm already half way to the city and in my car so why bother detouring into the center of Sunbury to get the train?

The north western corridor of Melbourne doesn't have the congestion that the west and south eastern suburbs do, if anything it only jams out near Melbourne Airport outbound in peak times and that's it

It's $22 to park at Crown Casino, or 'free' if you spend money on the tables or go to a restaurant with their membership program,

Or $2.90 if you park on street parking and $489 to get your car out of impound when it gets towed because it's a clearance zone between 4-6PM

You save 20 minutes on the best possible run by driving compared to the train and that's assuming it doesn't sit outside southern cross and wait for 15 minutes like usual because of something with the other trains causing delays.

If I drive to Watergardens to get the train there it's 50km, it's 60km to Melbourne CBD.

Long story short rail transport sucks unless you have a train connection in your suburb, it's not worth driving 15-30-50km to a train station you might as well as just drive into the city.

Same as the longer tram routes, last time I took a tram it took 1 hour 45 minutes to go from Elizabeth Street in Melbourne CBD to Matthews Avenue Airport West, a grand total of 15km.

[kevino]

Lol -I would drive to Sunbury station and catch the train to avoid paying $22 or $489!

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Thats not what you were implying in your post though, its got nothing to do with the public being aware of warranty issues of something that happened 8 years ago - you implied that dealing with warranty issues under the agency/online model was going to be problematic.

What will be problematic to Tesla is the cost of crash repairs, current estimates are that in accidents, the damage costs run to twice that of ICE vehicles. And getting replacement parts out of Tesla is going to be fun..

So I posted up evidence of a very prominent case with Ford Australia, with the highest fine ever handed down by the ACCC as well as pointing out their dealership network being deliberately difficult to deal with for warranty issues.

What they did was the oldest trick in the book, you just make the process so onerous/difficult that people give up.

Of course that did, one very bad case affecting an international Ford but for all of that record $10 million fine, I bet that just a tiny pin preck on an elephant corporate like Ford, it could easily have made those customers whole with Ned vehicles without DSG but chose not to. Even if some people are owed refunds, I bet the majority of DSG Ford owners have long sold their vehicles onto others now having fun with them and with zero recourse.

Of course, all of this bad action by one manufacturer should not give shade to a certain manufacturer that drops off your vehicle at a warehouse and tells you to call someone else about any warranty problems….

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by kypez

I don't know about that. Even non car people I knew heard about the Powershift issues. Focus never recovered from that fiasco.

The post DSG Focus with 1.6 EB and 6AT actually was a great vehicle and completely transformed people’s opinion of Focus.
Had Ford done the right thing and moved DSG owners into these vehicles, a lot of the heat would have gone out of the issue but no, Ford decided to stonewall people because their CEO was a giant douche and wouldn’t admit it was his fault for pressing development team to get DSG to market before ready…

[CyberWasp]

Originally Posted by kevino

Please explain

I have nothing against Public Transport and will begin to use it once there are no Public on it....

[kevino]

Originally Posted by jpd80

The post DSG Focus with 1.6 EB and 6AT actually was a great vehicle and completely transformed people’s opinion of Focus.
Had Ford done the right thing and moved DSG owners into these vehicles, a lot of the heat would have gone out of the issue but no, Ford decided to stonewall people because their CEO was a giant douche and wouldn’t admit it was his fault for pressing development team to get DSG to market before ready…

The Lz?
1.5 engine…..

Sadly lots of issues with that engine
Luckily I moved mine on at 129000 kms
Ford replaced a lot of engines due to a design fault

[kevino]

Originally Posted by CyberWasp

I have nothing against Public Transport and will begin to use it once there are no Public on it....

Yeah and that’s Franco s issue too
He just spins bs to avoid saying the exact same thing

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by kevino

Yeah and that’s Franco s issue too
He just spins bs to avoid saying the exact same thing

I got no problem with public transport, or the people who use it, I'm a big advocate for public transport investments/infrastructure - its just not worth it in my case what so ever.

I've used Sydney's train network significantly more than Melbourne's, because its actually good - the frequency of services is way more and it goes to places you might actually want to go. I went from Kings Cross to Cabramatta which was 30+ stops and it only cost $2.79 off peak.

$22 vs the massive **** around to get the train to the city, $22 any day of the week.

Go take the train from Melbourne Airport next time you come here and let me know how you go

[kevino]

I think I ll be waiting a long time for a train from Tullamarine airport
It’s the big GC built double decker Sky bus which drops you at Southern Cross
Glad to help you Franco!

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by kevino

I think I ll be waiting a long time for a train from Tullamarine airport
It’s the big GC built double decker Sky bus which drops you at Southern Cross
Glad to help you Franco!

Exactly my point - Skybus is also a private company,

Though a public transport aficionado like yourself would know you can get the 901 bus from Melbourne Airport to Broadmeadows train station and train into Melbourne CBD for about $9 total rather than Skybus at $25

[kevino]

Sky is Kenetic who operate our buses on the Gc and all over Aus and Nz

The 901 eh! I ll check that out.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by jpd80

What will be problematic to Tesla is the cost of crash repairs, current estimates are that in accidents, the damage costs run to twice that of ICE vehicles. And getting replacement parts out of Tesla is going to be fun..

Think that's less of an EV thing and more of a giga press issue. Given Toyota and Ford are looking to replicate it (and in their ICE as well), it'll become an industry issue.

This is why uncle Elon started offering insurance.

Sent from my Pixel 8 using Tapatalk

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by jpd80

The post DSG Focus with 1.6 EB and 6AT actually was a great vehicle and completely transformed people’s opinion of Focus.
Had Ford done the right thing and moved DSG owners into these vehicles, a lot of the heat would have gone out of the issue but no, Ford decided to stonewall people because their CEO was a giant douche and wouldn’t admit it was his fault for pressing development team to get DSG to market before ready…

SA Focus is even better...

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Dr Smith

SA Focus is even better...

How I long for the days of a Falcon I-6, might drink a little more fuel but it’s as reliable as a day is long.

[PooDog]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SL_HUDOdP6o