Towing a Caravan - Mechanical strain etc

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by Chapter Four

^ You can't fix stupid.
This isn't caused by towing a heavy load.
It's caused by a dumb person doing a dumb thing.

Yes, in this case the dumb person was towing too heavy a load, and then tried to overtake at high speed.

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by Chapter Four

This is just not true. You don't need 10-15% to be safe.
Why does the handbook in my car say 5-10% if it needs 10-15% to be safe.
Why does VW only require 5%.
Maybe if you want to tow at 130-160km/h you need to be at 10-15%. But seriously, you can't do that speed anywhere in Australia.
Thousand of people all over the world tow safely at 5%-10%.
I'm not agreeing with Fed on the negative ball weight and would never recommend that either. But this myth of 10-15% is just garbage.

It's not garbage, far from it.
The MORE weight you can put on the car the better.
Have a look at a 5th-wheeler,
or better yet a conventional semi, half the weight is on the Prime Mover.

But your car's rear-end needs to be able to take the weight, and the hitch must be up for it, and most are not.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

Have a look at a 5th-wheeler,
or better yet a conventional semi, half the weight is on the Prime Mover.

5th wheel and semis are substantially different in that the hitch is above the rear axle. Massively different to an overhung hitch.

[Tassie f100]

I would disagree on the weight.That looks to be aroun 5.5-6 metre open boat which would probably weigh around 15-1800 kgs,but I would presume that the ball weight was too low. Looking at that trailer it would appear that it probably has some sort of half*****d mods to fit a bigger boat than it was intended to have on it,resulting in too much boat behind the wheels resulting in too little ball weight.I would agree that I would much rather have 15% or even 20% ball weight if the tow vehicle would handle. 250 kg on the ball and you could tow that boat at 120km/h no problem.

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by Tassie f100

I would disagree on the weight.That looks to be aroun 5.5-6 metre open boat which would probably weigh around 15-1800 kgs,but I would presume that the ball weight was too low. Looking at that trailer it would appear that it probably has some sort of half*****d mods to fit a bigger boat than it was intended to have on it,resulting in too much boat behind the wheels resulting in too little ball weight.I would agree that I would much rather have 15% or even 20% ball weight if the tow vehicle would handle. 250 kg on the ball and you could tow that boat at 120km/h no problem.

It was excessive speed with driver over correcting with the steering that caused the accident, you can clearly see him nearly going off the verge of the road then tries to correct abruptly in which he loses control.
Nothing to do with weight or incorrect boat trailer.

[hayseed]

Originally Posted by Tassie f100

I would disagree on the weight.That looks to be aroun 5.5-6 metre open boat which would probably weigh around 15-1800 kgs,but I would presume that the ball weight was too low. Looking at that trailer it would appear that it probably has some sort of half*****d mods to fit a bigger boat than it was intended to have on it,resulting in too much boat behind the wheels resulting in too little ball weight.I would agree that I would much rather have 15% or even 20% ball weight if the tow vehicle would handle. 250 kg on the ball and you could tow that boat at 120km/h no problem.

Nope, Just some Numnuts who had His Ambitions confused with his Capabilities..

[chevypower]

Originally Posted by prydey

5th wheel and semis are substantially different in that the hitch is above the rear axle. Massively different to an overhung hitch.

Yeah the difference is 25% is about optimal for fifth wheel, and 10-15% is best for conventional. The people insisting less is always better or “no more than 5% because my owners manual says so,” are saying that because they’re not really talking about vehicles designed for towing. If you can’t put 10-15% of your trailer load on your hitch, because it will sag and overload the rear axle, then it’s too much trailer weight for that vehicle. Yes, you can shift more load toward the rear of the trailer to help level it, strap on your towing mirrors and away you go, but you’re dealing with compromises. It may be fine as long as you understand it. Now pull that same trailer with a vehicle designed to take the load, load the trailer properly so 10-15% is on the tongue, tell me which towing experience was more stable.

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by prydey

5th wheel and semis are substantially different

Really?
Oh wow, thanks for telling us!
And there was me thinking my AU was the same as a Kenworth

In point of fact the overriding principle remains the same. You want to put as much of the weight as possible on the towing vehicle, but yes, as I said, the strength and nature of the car and the hitch limits that.

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

Really?
Oh wow, thanks for telling us!
And there was me thinking my AU was the same as a Kenworth

In point of fact the overriding principle remains the same. You want to put as much of the weight as possible on the towing vehicle, but yes, as I said, the strength and nature of the car and the hitch limits that.

Best way to tow IMO.

Seems a lot of towing accidents started showing up around the same time they allowed higher speed limits for towed trailers a couple of years back.

[Tassie f100]

Lot of factors for more crashed.More caravans on the roads,but the biggest probably is people towing bigger heavier vans with unsuitable tow cars.How many times do you see 7.5-8 metre caravans weighing around 3 tonnes being towed by Ranger size vehicles.All good til a strong gust of wind or a bit of broken road surface and away everything goes.Big difference between towing a trailer loaded with building materials and a 3 t hollow box/ windsock with an 8sq metre wall in the front.

[Blue Dog]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7Kfl97b57s

[Chapter Four]

We've now got people saying more than 15% - where should we stop, 30%, 50%?.
Why don't we all just buy tilt trays and put our trailers on that, would be much safer.
Of course there are compromises, no one said there isn't.
What I and others have said, is that you can tow heavy trailers with less than 10% ball weight safely.
I've done thousands of kilometers doing so, but I suppose I've never tried to overtake at +120km/h on a single lane highway with an unsecured load either
I'm happy doing 80kmh safely towing my 2T load. It's the compromise I'm willing to make. I also pull over when i can to let others pass, I'm in no hurry.
If a driver can't tow safely at 5-10% ball load, it says more about the driver than it does the tow vehicle and trailer.

Maybe there needs to be some form of licence to tow more than 750kg, ie a braked trailer, so numptys like the guy in the video are taught some of the basics, but for some I doubt even that would help. Sometimes you can't help stupid.

[Blue Dog]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWJ4Iy6ek24

[Cav]

Originally Posted by Blue Dog

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7Kfl97b57s

I see the mighty AU was unscathed at 3.30

So what to do when it sways?

Accelerate?

Engage electric brakes on caravan?

[whitelion65]

Originally Posted by Cav

I see the mighty AU was unscathed at 3.30

So what to do when it sways?

Accelerate?

Engage electric brakes on caravan?

Unscathed.....for an AU ;-) ....I know....BASTARD!

One thing these videos demonstrate is the danger of the pressure wave at the front of Semis, and the effect they have on vans, indeed cars themselves.

[Chapter Four]

Originally Posted by Blue Dog

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7Kfl97b57s

Great video.
4WDs, big US pick ups, family sedans, Mid sized euros, box trailers, large vans, even an empty trailer.
So either nothing is safe, or the way they were loaded and driven was unsafe.

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by Tassie f100

Lot of factors for more crashed.More caravans on the roads,but the biggest probably is people towing bigger heavier vans with unsuitable tow cars.How many times do you see 7.5-8 metre caravans weighing around 3 tonnes being towed by Ranger size vehicles.All good til a strong gust of wind or a bit of broken road surface and away everything goes.Big difference between towing a trailer loaded with building materials and a 3 t hollow box/ windsock with an 8sq metre wall in the front.

I never believed towing on the max with any car, wagons utes & suv's but I don't see a problem with vans (wobbly boxes) as you put it if driven correctly under any conditions, usually the problem is the loose nut behind the wheel.

Cheers.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Tassie f100

,but the biggest probably is people towing bigger heavier vans with unsuitable tow cars.How many times do you see 7.5-8 metre caravans weighing around 3 tonnes being towed by Ranger size vehicles.All good til a strong gust of wind or a bit of broken road surface and away everything goes.Big difference between towing a trailer loaded with building materials and a 3 t hollow box/ windsock with an 8sq metre wall in the front.

I don't agree. A ranger is actually a very good tow vehicle. In fact it's technically better than a land cruiser if you're towing 3t or less. The reason is it has the longest wheelbase and the shortest distance from rear axle to hitch. These are two very important attributes.

Modern dual cabs and wagons actually tow quite well if they are set up properly and within the manufacturers ratings and driven at appropriate speeds. Many just never read their owners manual to find out that info.

Crash statistics also point out that crashes involving vehicles towing are a very small percentage of overall crashes on the roads. Most accidents are caused by the device between the steering wheel and the seat.

[hayseed]

Originally Posted by Chapter Four

Maybe there needs to be some form of licence to tow more than 750kg, ie a braked trailer, so numptys like the guy in the video are taught some of the basics, but for some I doubt even that would help. Sometimes you can't help stupid.

Couldn't agree more..

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Chapter Four

Maybe there needs to be some form of licence to tow more than 750kg, ie a braked trailer, so numptys like the guy in the video are taught some of the basics, but for some I doubt even that would help. Sometimes you can't help stupid.

I'm not an advocate for an extra licence but what I think would help is if authorities started policing the activity a lot more, especially weighing. This might get people to do their due diligence and make sure they are within all the ratings.

Currently very little policing happens.

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

Really?
Oh wow, thanks for telling us!
And there was me thinking my AU was the same as a Kenworth

In point of fact the overriding principle remains the same. You want to put as much of the weight as possible on the towing vehicle, but yes, as I said, the strength and nature of the car and the hitch limits that.

Not quite. Cars and trailers are connected behind the rear axle.

Trailers on a Semi are connected directly over (or slightly to the front of) the drive axles. Which, as you would know, helps eliminate the 'tail wagging the dog' effect.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by GasoLane

Not quite. Cars and trailers are connected behind the rear axle.

Trailers on a Semi are connected directly over (or slightly to the front of) the drive axles. Which, as you would know, helps eliminate the 'tail wagging the dog' effect.

i believe its also one of the reasons why 'pig' trailers are not very common these days, as 'dog' trailers are much safer.

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by prydey

i believe its also one of the reasons why 'pig' trailers are not very common these days, as 'dog' trailers are much safer.

Pig trailers are everywhere on the Eastcoast, so many tourist coaches and removalist use them.
Yep, agree with others here caravaner's need an endorsed towing licence.

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by Cav

I see the mighty AU was unscathed at 3.30

So what to do when it sways?

Accelerate?

Engage electric brakes on caravan?

I see the standard AU faded roof.
Note that accident was on the M1 at Berowra entrance lane, flat stretch of the freeway so he must have been racing the BA wagon next to him. Points for keeping it upright.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

Yep, agree with others here caravaner's need an endorsed towing licence.

statistically, the percentage of caravans that come unstuck compared to the number of vans on the road, is very small.

you have to get a licence to drive a car/truck/motorbike etc yet people crash them every day. a licence is not a solution. its just more red tape and expense.

Perhaps what people really want is some form of mandatory training. I believe these facilities already exist but are voluntary.

I still don't see the need. These opinions are often put forward by generations who had very little in the way of training for any licence aquired back in those days. Rather ironic really.

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by prydey

statistically, the percentage of caravans that come unstuck compared to the number of vans on the road, is very small.

you have to get a licence to drive a car/truck/motorbike etc yet people crash them every day. a licence is not a solution. its just more red tape and expense.

Perhaps what people really want is some form of mandatory training. I believe these facilities already exist but are voluntary.

I still don't see the need. These opinions are often put forward by generations who had very little in the way of training for any licence aquired back in those days. Rather ironic really.

Articulated vehicles IMO need extra testing. I need extra testing to drive trucks or buses so why not caravanners to pull heavy vans around. Why not over a certain weight of GCM. Or go back to lowering the speed limit for towed trailers of a certain GCM.

[hayseed]

Considering that Modern Vehicles have the ECU set to, disable any parking sensors/Reverse camera's while ever there's a trailer being Towed. It'd be very simple to set It up so the vehicle Can't go faster than (say) 90kmh whilst Towing..

The euro's recommend a lower Towing speed limit for a reason..!

[lra]

Originally Posted by Blue Dog

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7Kfl97b57s

In that particular video, and the RHD rollovers (Aus?) .... how many were FWD tow vehicles, which had more weight aboard the trailer/van than the weight of the tow vehicle.

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by lra

In that particular video, and the RHD rollovers (Aus?) .... how many were FWD tow vehicles, which had more weight aboard the trailer/van than the weight of the tow vehicle.

The English one at the end, towing a Transit van on a car trailer. the driver should have gone to prison for the stupidity.

[Pis-ton broke]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

I see the standard AU faded roof.
Note that accident was on the M1 at Berowra entrance lane, flat stretch of the freeway so he must have been racing the BA wagon next to him. Points for keeping it upright.

coming down the hill onto moony moony bridge was my first thought.