47 P Platers loose their licence every day in Vic.

[mongoloid]

Originally Posted by Peuty

Low speed manoeuvres??? No! Instant fail for speeding! Get out of here! Hour long test? Somebody think of the children!

Seriously, as every man and his dog has mentioned MANDATORY DRIVER TRAINING IS THE ONLY WAY!!!!! Put kids in a car with bald tyres and bad suspension, teach them that a car like that is a death trap. Put said kid and car into an emergency lane change situation and watch them crap themselves when they can't control the car. Put them in a good car with good suspension and good tyres. Once again, put said kid and car into the same emergency situation. Watch them crap themselves when they can't control the car.

When things like that are taught in a controlled environment, drivers who think they are ten foot tall and bullet proof tend to become a little sheepish when they are shown they aren't as good as they think they are. Combined with the appropriate theory modules and defensive driving modules, a course like that sets drivers up to become a more focussed, aware and SAFE driver.

I agree with this. Many accidents are caused by young blokes testing their limits out on the road. Most people learn their limits, and chilll their driving out as they get older knowing how to control a car in "adverse conditions". Of course some dont get away with it, they go past their limits and end up dead or killing someone. If there is more training as described by Peuty when these blokes get on the road sure a lot of them will still act up, but they will at least have some of the skills to not to end up crashing. I'm not advocating teaching people how to drive like hoons just to instil the skills to handle the 5% percent of driving conditions when things dont go to plan yet can end with the worst results.

[Trevor 57]

Originally Posted by Keepleft

On the same road once, I sat at speeds up to 170km/h, legally. Safe at point of operation too.

Until a kangaroo comes bounding out from a well hidden spot.

And don't say it doesn't happen, because it bloody well does.

[Trevor 57]

I have worked as a high level driver trainer for over 20 years.

I trained all my 4 kids to a very high level, starting well before they were on L Plates, I not only trained them to get a licence in excess of Vicroads requirements, but also gave them advanced driver skills and knowledge.

They all turned out to be very very good drivers, however all that pre-licence driver training did not stop my 2 sons from each loosing their licences for a number of times for being idiots behind the wheel whilst on P Plates.

Driver training will work for some, but not all.

Being a lard head behind the wheel of a motor vehicle has nothing to do with the level of knowledge, it is attitudinal, over-confidence and the love of risk taking behaviour.

I have posted many times on here about my risk taking behaviour theories, but here is an abridged version:

Humans by nature are risk taking animals, if we weren't we wouldn't have evolved as far as we have.

Humans tend to have a higher level of risk taking mentality between the ages of about 15 to 25 years of age.

And what do we do as a society at this point in the humans life, we give them a bloody drivers licence and allow them to drink alcohol, and in Victoria on the same bloody day.

Go figure!

[89.SVO]

Originally Posted by Big Trev

One of the reasons is the Government has reduced the 12 points for drivers to 5 points for P Platers, and one of their more stupid laws dictates that P Platers will loose 3 points for not displaying a P Plate, FFS, convince me of the life saving advantages of not having a bit of plastic in your front and rear windows.

yeah i got done for no P plates. in a customers car. now i have only 2 demerits left and i have never got a speeding fine or pulled up for any other reason apart from random breath test in the 2 years i've had my P's so far

[89.SVO]

Originally Posted by CSTM XB

i am a P-plater myself, well at least until 8th december this year so about 2 weeks away from full licence..then i can be finally rid of this branded "HOON" name all over me..I am not a hoon, i'll admit i mucked up a bit when i was just starting driving as about every teenage boy does when he gets his hands on a car, but one simple mistake that got involved with the police straightened me out and for the past 3 years of being a P plater i have barely done anything that would be considered "hooning"

You want to stop hoons??? simple sollution..extreme restrictions on power of the vehicle, that means NO V8's...NO V6's..NO Turbo or Supercharged 4 Cylinders either...

Trust me if the only car P platers could drive had 4cylinder engines..i doubt there will much hooning going on, when a 4cylinder motor could barely spin a wheel to do a burnout, drift, or even have enormous acceleration speed..

thats a load of . the power restrictions are bad enough. i know in my last post i said in 2 years i haven't been pulled up but you have to get caught first

but i had a 83 Holden Camira in Perth and all i had to do to do a skid was rev it to 6,000rpm at the lights and drop the clutch. did a nice single spinner from the lights. and wet weather was my friend

[Rodp]

Originally Posted by Marduk

I have seen the most atrocious driving from instructors and they're teaching people to look in there rear view mirror when braking. Why the ... should you be looking in your rear view mirror when braking? You should be looking where you're going so you don't run into the car in front of you or run out into the intersection and get T-boned. When i'm approaching an intersection what the guy behind me is doing is the last thing i'm concerned about.

Spoken by someone who's yet to be hit in the rear...

If I'm having to brake a little heavier than normal I'll glance in the rear view mirror. It's amazing how many rear enders you can avoid if you give the car behind you an extra metre that you otherwise wouldn't have had you not checked to see that the car behind you is a little too close.

[89.SVO]

Originally Posted by Rodp

Spoken by someone who's yet to be hit in the rear...

If I'm having to brake a little heavier than normal I'll glance in the rear view mirror. It's amazing how many rear enders you can avoid if you give the car behind you an extra metre that you otherwise wouldn't have had you not checked to see that the car behind you is a little too close.

maybe they were looking there rear view mirror. lol. not looking at what your were doin so they hit you. they should be paying attention to you and the road in front. oh and not tail gating

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Big Trev

I have worked as a high level driver trainer for over 20 years.

I trained all my 4 kids to a very high level, starting well before they were on L Plates, I not only trained them to get a licence in excess of Vicroads requirements, but also gave them advanced driver skills and knowledge.

They all turned out to be very very good drivers, however all that pre-licence driver training did not stop my 2 sons from each loosing their licences for a number of times for being idiots behind the wheel whilst on P Plates.

Driver training will work for some, but not all.

Being a lard head behind the wheel of a motor vehicle has nothing to do with the level of knowledge, it is attitudinal, over-confidence and the love of risk taking behaviour.

I have posted many times on here about my risk taking behaviour theories, but here is an abridged version:

Humans by nature are risk taking animals, if we weren't we wouldn't have evolved as far as we have.

Humans tend to have a higher level of risk taking mentality between the ages of about 15 to 25 years of age.

And what do we do as a society at this point in the humans life, we give them a bloody drivers licence and allow them to drink alcohol, and in Victoria on the same bloody day.

Go figure!

Well said.

[NudgE^SIKBRO]

I dont really know what to say about this one, whilst on P's i got done speeding twice... however I lost my ticket after i got off my P's (back in my day 12pts on P's). I personally think that drivers licences are far too easy to get. Im guessing that most of these P'Plate accidents happen at night, i know the few my mates and i had were at night, how bout banning night drivers for the 1st 6 months or something, learn to drive when you can see.

Banning High Performance cars doesnt really fix the problem in my eyes for two reasons. 1st those buying a REAL high performance car... such as an Early model Falcon, Commodore, Kingswood or what ever tend to have put large ammounts of work into the car and do usually look after it, Late model HSV's, FPV's and other SS/XR8 Based cars have a fair deal of standard safety equiptment installed and really how many P' Plates do ya see driving a GTP. I put it down to VN-VX Commodores EA-EL Falcons and other cars in that price grid. No real safety features (ABS on the late ones and hey we all know it rarely works on the Falcs) an little more than enough power to get you in trouble. On my P's i had a 351C Manual XE Sedan and i'd put a fair ammount of time and coin into that car so i looked after it drove sensibly etc how ever a few years after that i got a EA falcon which copped a flogging, hey it was an EA.

Next, Teach P' Platers how to drive around Trucks. I am a Trucky and lets say im heading up the Princes HWY through Noble Park... (6 Lanes wide fairly wide lanes and good vision 80k limit) It happens day to day that ill be sitting in the middle lane doin my 70-75kph and ill have a P Plater sit in the right lane just beside me without the balls to pass. they sit just ahead of my Rear doors right beside my trailer axles and the slower i go, the slower they go. things like that make it extremely difficult for me to pull off a lane change because they dont bother looking for indicators or anything and its basicly up to me to flip the blinker on and start merging into their lane. THAT ISNT SAFE but thats how its got to be...

Theres plenty more i could say from a professional driver point of view but i wont, I'll save it for a later date.

Cheers Dan

[balthazarr]

Originally Posted by NudgE^SIKBRO

...
Next, Teach P' Platers how to drive around Trucks. I am a Trucky and lets say im heading up the Princes HWY through Noble Park... (6 Lanes wide fairly wide lanes and good vision 80k limit) It happens day to day that ill be sitting in the middle lane doin my 70-75kph and ill have a P Plater sit in the right lane just beside me without the balls to pass. they sit just ahead of my Rear doors right beside my trailer axles and the slower i go, the slower they go. things like that make it extremely difficult for me to pull off a lane change because they dont bother looking for indicators or anything and its basicly up to me to flip the blinker on and start merging into their lane. THAT ISNT SAFE but thats how its got to be...
...

Agreed 100%. And it's not just P Platers.

I'm not a truckie, but the number of times I've seen idiots with no clue how to drive... and trucks seem to bring out the best (worst) of them.

I've actually witnessed two 'accidents' where a truck has rear ended the car in front - 'rear ended' isn't right... flattened, more like it - through no fault of the truckie... both times the idiots driving changed lanes in front of the truck, basically cutting them off, then hit the brakes to stop for a traffic light. If they'd changed lanes in front of another car, their manoeuvre probably would have been okay. What these morons failed to realise is that trucks take longer to stop than they do. :

So how do you teach something like that? How do you drum the obvious into someone's head?

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by balthazarr

I've actually witnessed two 'accidents' where a truck has rear ended the car in front - 'rear ended' isn't right... flattened, more like it - through no fault of the truckie... both times the idiots driving changed lanes in front of the truck, basically cutting them off, then hit the brakes to stop for a traffic light. If they'd changed lanes in front of another car, their manoeuvre probably would have been okay. What these morons failed to realise is that trucks take longer to stop than they do. :

So how do you teach something like that? How do you drum the obvious into someone's head?

So the difference in distance between a huge rear-ender that "flattens" a car and pulling up comfortably and safely is 6 meters...?

[balthazarr]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

So the difference in distance between a huge rear-ender that "flattens" a car and pulling up comfortably and safely is 6 meters...?

Okay, flattened maybe was a little bit of an exaggeration.
But there was certainly more damage done to the car than if it was another car that it hit it.

6 metres is ~car length... so if the truck stopped 6 metres earlier, that's the difference between no contact and the truck's front tyres resting on the drivers head.

The point I was trying to make is that in both cases these 'accidents' were completely avoidable... if the car hadn't changed lanes in front the truck when there wasn't enough room to do so safely, then no rear-ender.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by balthazarr

Okay, flattened maybe was a little bit of an exaggeration.
But there was certainly more damage done to the car than if it was another car that it hit it.

6 metres is ~car length... so if the truck stopped 6 metres earlier, that's the difference between no contact and the truck's front tyres resting on the drivers head.

The point I was trying to make is that in both cases these 'accidents' were completely avoidable... if the car hadn't changed lanes in front the truck when there wasn't enough room to do so safely, then no rear-ender.

Id suggest 2 things:

1) the person who pulled in front of a heavily braking truck into a tight gap is a fool
2) if 6 meters was enough to cause a big rear ender the truck was most likely going to plow into the car in front of the lane changer anyway...

But i do understand your point about "late" lane changing and causing trucks to brake "harder than normal"... its not just isolated to trucks either.

[Trevor 57]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Id suggest 2 things:

1) the person who pulled in front of a heavily braking truck into a tight gap is a fool
2) if 6 meters was enough to cause a big rear ender the truck was most likely going to plow into the car in front of the lane changer anyway...

But i do understand your point about "late" lane changing and causing trucks to brake "harder than normal"... its not just isolated to trucks either.

I think I have written some stuff about this too somewhere on here. I'll go and have alook later.

[ST]

I have to laugh at people not looking into that article, anybody who has studied even the basics of media will know these figures are just as reputable as a car salesman at the bottom end of town. Why? There is no source for the stats, if you read the article through you will realise the only statistics with a source were statistics from previous years.

People swallow anything about P platers, as long as it makes them look bad. Right 4v?

[Rob's 76 Effy]

Originally Posted by Big Trev

I think I have written some stuff about this too somewhere on here. I'll go and have alook later.

Yes you did LOL, but not in this thread

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by ST

I have to laugh at people not looking into that article, anybody who has studied even the basics of media will know these figures are just as reputable as a car salesman at the bottom end of town. Why? There is no source for the stats, if you read the article through you will realise the only statistics with a source were statistics from previous years.

People swallow anything about P platers, as long as it makes them look bad. Right 4v?

See and believe what you like.. people like you are the problem because you constantly live in denial...

[sikford]

there will be more p-platers being targeted now more than any other time of the year. 1, because they're an easy arget and 2 because the police r just raising revenue for christmas.they're shifty as

[ST]

I'm constantly in denial? I accept there are far too many dangerous and immature P-Platers on our roads. One thing I don't accept is statistics quoted from a non-existant source in order to spark more debate and make people such as yourself place soul blame on the Probationary drivers for everything that goes wrong on the roads today.

The fact that you posted this article as a credible source of information is proof of how gullible you are with such a strong bias against young drivers.

[sikford]

i personally dont think its young drivers but there seem to be more and more doing the wrong thing and take it from someone who has lost there license before it isn't worth the pain and effort let alone the fines and the time off the rd not being able to drive or get anywhere.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by ST

I'm constantly in denial? I accept there are far too many dangerous and immature P-Platers on our roads. One thing I don't accept accept is statistics quoted from a non-existant source in order to spark more debate and make people such as yourself place soul blame on the Probationary drivers for everything that goes wrong on the roads today.

The fact that you posted this article as a credible source of information is proof of how gullible you are with such a strong bias against young drivers.

What? Read my first post, if you don't believe the stats take it up with the paper... if you think they'd make that kind of stuff up you're delusional.
Show me where i've ever placed SOLE blame on P platers for everything that goes wrong on the road.. :
I bet you're a P plater right?
One who refuses to acknowledge the stats or facts and dismisses them as "made up" as some kind of conspiracy theory rather that cop it on the chin, taking heed and advice.....
One who probably believes it "wont happen to them" because you know better and can drive better right?
I take a strong bias against STUPID DANGEROUS drivers with a poor attitude to road safety, who ever falls into that category is up to them.

[Rodp]

Originally Posted by WILDEB

maybe they were looking there rear view mirror. lol. not looking at what your were doin so they hit you. they should be paying attention to you and the road in front. oh and not tail gating

Of course they should have been but driving on public roads isn't an exact science, people make mistakes and I do my bit to make sure the mistake isn't at my cost.

Glancing in my rear view mirror when braking has saved me from countless potential rear enders, it doesn't matter why the driver behind me wasn't paying due care and attention, you can't make the assumption that they're perfectly attentive and careful drivers.

When I'm at pole position at a traffic light, I'll also glance at the cars on the red to make sure some knucklehead isn't trying to run it. That has saved me from a number of t-bones in the past. I've witnessed several accidents where a car has entered an intersection on the green and been t-boned by a red runner.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Rodp

Of course they should have been but driving on public roads isn't an exact science, people make mistakes and I do my bit to make sure the mistake isn't at my cost.

Glancing in my rear view mirror when braking has saved me from countless potential rear enders, it doesn't matter why the driver behind me wasn't paying due care and attention, you can't make the assumption that they're perfectly attentive and careful drivers.

When I'm at pole position at a traffic light, I'll also glance at the cars on the red to make sure some knucklehead isn't trying to run it. That has saved me from a number of t-bones in the past. I've witnessed several accidents where a car has entered an intersection on the green and been t-boned by a red runner.

Yep, done it a few times too, especially when braking for lights, twice i've swerved right to allow the rapidly approaching vehicle behind me (with distracted driver) to use the car in front of me as a battering ram... one of those occasions a truck sailed through a red light... A brief glance saved my butt big time..

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by WILDEB

maybe they were looking there rear view mirror. lol. not looking at what your were doin so they hit you. they should be paying attention to you and the road in front. oh and not tail gating

I like to consider myself a competent driver, 16yrs and no accidents to date..touch wood :

There is far more to driving than looking at whats infront of you, infact i have no problem saying that anyone who can only maintain awareness of things directly in front shouldn't be on the road in the first place.

A confident driver should know exactly whats going on around them without even thinking about it, almost an extra sence.
The ability to know ones car position in relation to those infront and the ability to make continuous glances in mirrors etc. to avoid unnecessary hits from behind if a situation arises. And lastly, the ability to make the correct split second decisions and have the ability to see them through.

Be confident in your own ability, and conscious of everyone elses!!

[balthazarr]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

What? Read my first post, if you don't believe the stats take it up with the paper... if you think they'd make that kind of stuff up you're delusional.
Show me where i've ever placed SOLE blame on P platers for everything that goes wrong on the road.. :
I bet you're a P plater right?
One who refuses to acknowledge the stats or facts and dismisses them as "made up" as some kind of conspiracy theory rather that cop it on the chin, taking heed and advice.....
One who probably believes it "wont happen to them" because you know better and can drive better right?
I take a strong bias against STUPID DANGEROUS drivers with a poor attitude to road safety, who ever falls into that category is up to them.

4Vman and I disagree on a number of issues... particularly relating to speed cameras and revenue-raising... but I have to step in and defend him here.

Yes, you can try and shift the blame to the paper for poor reporting - let's face it, how many papers these days actually report the news fairly and accurately... investigative journalism has gone the way of the Tassie Tiger, but I digress - but as 4Vman says, denial is not going to get you anywhere.

There's a reason why car insurance is expensive for young drivers (the majority of whom would be P platers). It may be the minority that stuff it up for the majority (though that's debatable) - deal. That's the way of the world.

[balthazarr]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

I like to consider myself a competent driver, 16yrs and no accidents to date..touch wood :

There is far more to driving than looking at whats infront of you, infact i have no problem saying that anyone who can only maintain awareness of things directly in front shouldn't be on the road in the first place.

A confident driver should know exactly whats going on around them without even thinking about it, almost an extra sence.
The ability to know ones car position in relation to those infront and the ability to make continuous glances in mirrors etc. to avoid unnecessary hits from behind if a situation arises. And lastly, the ability to make the correct split second decisions and have the ability to see them through.

Be confident in your own ability, and conscious of everyone elses!!

If only all 16 year olds had such wisdom.

[mongoloid]

I totally agree with a quick glance in the rvm when braking. People make mistakes as a drivers and if you consider yourself already a safe and alert driver, being able to accomodate mistakes from other drivers helps.

Does anyone think trends are changing as far as young people driving habits go? It seems people are gonna act up regardless, as people have mentioned before its the risk taking nature we have during those years. Which is why i think teaching people to handle cars in adverse conditions is the way to go

[BlackLS]

Originally Posted by Daymoe

How many driving lessons have you guys had before you all went for your licences? I'm 17 and I've had 30 already.

0 driving lessons with instructor, but did over 150 hours on my L's, when all was needed was 50, that included 2 interstate trips. Had 1 accident on my green Ps (slow speed, no other party) and 1 fine in my driving history (driving manual with automatic red-P licence, which I had been doing daily for the past 9 months prior)

[Pete from Port]

Situational awareness...consideration for others....if everyone operated in this fashion there would be fewer accos thats for sure. My old man, some 46 years ago, said to me " listen son, drive the other bloke's car for him, and if you don't like what you see get out of his bloody way". It was one of the few times I think I listened to him..... and I didn't really hear for a few years, but I live by those words now.Many a driver has been involved in a prang by insisting on right of way, real or perceived,to the point of impact also. Different people have different views of what the give way laws are... just watch any roundabout. Rules change... earlier in this thread someone mentioned seeing a u turn over double lines... not an offence here in NSW for years now. Driving to the conditions doesn't mean just slowing in the wet, it includes the traffic around you even on the best of days. And as a kid I was the biggest lair you could hope your daughter refused a ride from.

[vanman_75]

Originally Posted by BlackLS

0 driving lessons with instructor, but did over 150 hours on my L's, when all was needed was 50, that included 2 interstate trips. Had 1 accident on my green Ps (slow speed, no other party) and 1 fine in my driving history (driving manual with automatic red-P licence, which I had been doing daily for the past 9 months prior)

justa couple months driving for me and that would be much less than others on here ,no body could tell me squat on my ps .but theni had been driving for a few years before then. lost a few friends that drove like idiots ,enough will never be enough ,attitudes and ability has to improve .