Best Last Aussie Wagon

[lra]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

In retrospect, its ridiculous how stuck in the past FoA were. And in the end, we wound up with nothing. No Wagons, No Territories, just a bunch of Thai specials.

The Fairlane died because no-one knew that it was still being made. Think large Aus car = think Statesman. No promotion, no advertising, no buyers.

The Falcon wagon died a similar death. "No-one wants one, so we will chop it." The reason no-one wanted one was because they didn't build them with desirable specifications/ options.
Customer ..... "I would like a Falcon wagon just like a VE SS wagon."
Ford ……………" We don't do one. Go see Holden "
Customer …… "What about a V8 Territory ?"
Ford …… "We may have a V6 diesel one day "

Thia specials ? The end result would still have been the same, but Ford may have made people satisfied with choice before the inevitable.

[Citroënbender]

I almost wouldn’t be surprised if someone comes out of the woodwork in the future and says “I was part of a hostile team to undermine the efforts of Ford Australia”. The fact of not designing the Territory for a V8, nor for an easy LHD build, it reeks of interference. And yes, absolutely, the terrible lack of a sporty wagon.

IMO the last clever Falcon (in market targeting) was the XR6 Turbo, a perfect market fit for sports utes, and in four door format ideal for Skyline owners who failed family planning 101.

[roKWiz]

People bought Skylines ?

[TheInterceptor]

Originally Posted by arronm

Every falcon wagon had leaf springs. What a joke.

They were made to be the family truckster or a hardy fleet spec work car. Leaf springs were simple, generally never required any work over the life of the car and was very easy and very cheap to upgrade should you need to carry heavy loads. Having said that, the old XR wagons still handled great so there really isn't many negatives to leaf springs aside from the obvious rough road high speed handling which is still more than manageable.

I use one for touring, I have ute 3/4t dual leafs and the back isn't even close to touching the second rate load leaf nor is it sagging. Its perfect. In coil sprung equivalents you simply cant get a coil to represent a leafs characteristics, youd have to use airbags which I thoroughly hate.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by TheInterceptor

They were made to be the family truckster or a hardy fleet spec work car. Leaf springs were simple, generally never required any work over the life of the car and was very easy and very cheap to upgrade should you need to carry heavy loads. Having said that, the old XR wagons still handled great so there really isn't many negatives to leaf springs aside from the obvious rough road high speed handling which is still more than manageable.

I use one for touring, I have ute 3/4t dual leafs and the back isn't even close to touching the second rate load leaf nor is it sagging. Its perfect. In coil sprung equivalents you simply cant get a coil to represent a leafs characteristics, youd have to use airbags which I thoroughly hate.

Ford sold large % of wagon sales to fleets. The fleets loved them cause they had so much space in the back, and could carry a decent load. Plus available in LPG.

Ford catered to these fleets with the late wagons. If people wanted something else they had the Territory. Something Holden never had an alternative for, hence them making the sportswagon. Which was useless for carrying anything due to it's load space which was probably half that of a Falcon wagon.

[Crazy Dazz]

Well indeed, but there's no good reason they couldn't have made coils, and IRS, work.
and offered the full range of choice.
I mean FFS, the hardest part of turning a sedan into a wagon is the body. All the other bits just fit.
No real reason we couldn't have continued with V8 wagons, included XR8 and nice Fairmont Ghia.

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

If people wanted something else they had the Territory.

But that's my point. Their ridiculous assumption that people come to buy a Ford, and you can only sell them one or the other. People wanting a nice wagon, or a V8, didn't switch from Falcon to Territory, they went and bought a commode, or a Volvo.

When you consider the bull**** they did waste money on, their failure to offer decent choices in the wagon was unjustifiable and contrived.

I can only suspect, that along with the decision that the E8 "Orion" would be the last ever Falcon, they decided long before that they would not offer a wagon, and decided to destroy demand.
The plan not to develop an FG Wagon is probably justifiable, given the falling demand for wagons generally (in favour of SUVs) and given it was a whole new platform.
But to me that doesn't justify the lack of options during the B series, and again this reflects their stupid mentality of thinking they could push people into Territories.
And the really dumb part, is that they could have massively boosted Mondeo Wagon sales, but continued to treat it like the bastard step-child.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

But that's my point. Their ridiculous assumption that people come to buy a Ford, and you can only sell them one or the other. People wanting a nice wagon, or a V8, didn't switch from Falcon to Territory, they went and bought a commode, or a Volvo.

When you consider the bull**** they did waste money on, their failure to offer decent choices in the wagon was unjustifiable and contrived.

I can only suspect, that along with the decision that the E8 "Orion" would be the last ever Falcon, they decided long before that they would not offer a wagon, and decided to destroy demand.
The plan not to develop an FG Wagon is probably justifiable, given the falling demand for wagons generally (in favour of SUVs) and given it was a whole new platform.
But to me that doesn't justify the lack of options during the B series, and again this reflects their stupid mentality of thinking they could push people into Territories.
And the really dumb part, is that they could have massively boosted Mondeo Wagon sales, but continued to treat it like the bastard step-child.

As I said they mostly sold wagons to fleets. Especially Telstra. And they saw the swing to SUV's before the others did. What would have been the point of making wagons like the sportswagon, when buyers were already moving in droves to SUV's?

It still would have failed. It's not like the Holden Sportswagon stopped Commodore sales dropping off a cliff.

[arronm]

Its an easy one ford failed in so many ways and Holden gave people the cars they wanted to buy.

Ford told buyers what they wanted to buy

You could even buy a Ve manual SS wagon

[Gothefalcon]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

In the red corner, we have the last Sportwagons, right up to 2017. wheelbase was not LWB but rather shared the sedan's dimensions.

Technically, All VE/VF Sedan & Wagons were built on the "long" wheelbase (except Statesman/Caprice which were built on an "extra long" wheelbase).
If you check the dimensions of the Commodore Sedans that were built prior, you will fing that the "short" wheelbase was discontinued with VE.... and the old "long" wheelbase became the new "short" wheelbase.

When it comes to the VE/VF Wagons load space... it was shorter behind the back seats, because the back seats were placed in the old LWB Statesman position (basically) for extra rear legroom (thus taking up load space) unlike a Falcon Wagon which has the long wheelbase (like a Fairlane), but the back seat is located in the same position as the SWB sedans.
Then there's the VE/VFs roof and tailgate design, and the side pods things in the cargo area, which further reduce load space.
As the Holden Wagons had coil springs/IRS.. they had a reduced load carrying capability anyway... so no great loss to the requirement for the Wagon's load capacity.

Originally Posted by Sprintey

There will be no more Aussie wagons - so what was the best of the recent Aussie 6 wagons?

It comes down to what you want the Wagon for. If you require space & the ability to carry/tow a good load... then the Falcon Wagon wins, hands down.
If you just want a nice car with the ability to hold a bit more/larger sized items than a Sedan would... then there were a few other options including VE/VF Sportwagon on the market (granted, the others weren't made here, so the Sportwagon is the only other answer here)

I've had plenty of Ford Wagons over the years... 6s & V8s, Manuals & Autos, Falcons (base, GS, S) & Fairmonts... and for the past 8 yrs, my AWD BF2 Falcon Wagon (plus TC 2.0 manual & TE 4.1 auto Cortinas ) and as I've used them as load luggers regularly, the leaf spring rear end has always been a prefference for me ! As others have noted, it's cheap to maintain (if you have it long enough to require that) and it does it's job (carry weight/tow loads/etc) so...o much better than any of the coil sprung wagons.
Now that I have the anti-tramp rod rear end from an RTV... it even handles corrugations and dodgy roads just as well as a coil sprung rear (though speed humps hit square on still require a careful approach )

It disapointed me that the XR or Fairmont versions were no longer available (as I'd had a few of the earlier models)... but i would rather upgrade my Falcon Wagon, to have a vehicle with true Wagon abilities, then go for something else not quite as capable.

I understand that most will just want to walk up and buy a vehicle that suits their needs... so can see why a VE/VF Sportwagon would be an attractive option... but I do know a few people that bought them (coz they looked cooler than the last Falcons)... only to sell them fairly quickly as they didn't suit their young family load size carrying needs (they either went back to Falcon or into SUV).

Alas... there's nothing on the market to replace the Falcon Wagon really
To find something with all it's attributes, you have to buy a pretty big 4x4 something... and still you loose the fuel economy/turning circle/cheap maintenance/etc ! So I'll be running mine (and/or doing up more) for a long time to come

D

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by arronm

Its an easy one ford failed in so many ways and Holden gave people the cars they wanted to buy.

Ford told buyers what they wanted to buy

You could even buy a Ve manual SS wagon

Except Ford gave the public what they really wanted, the SUV. One of the main causes of the Commodores decline.

Holden had no answer for it. Hell, they were even going to build their own SUV before they changed tack and shut up shop.

[Smoke Pursuit]

Good luck finding a decent BF3 wagon.. Most are trashed!!!

Very reliable and capable tho, especially with the live axle rear end.

Also be wary of ones with very dark glass / as new rear seats as a lot of them were used as morgue cars (you could comfortably fit 2 bodies in the boot).

A bloke at work has an LPG BF1 with about 500k on it now... All he does is services it, replaces tyres and brakes! Its had its day tho.

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by Smoke Pursuit

Also be wary of ones with very dark glass / as new rear seats as a lot of them were used as morgue cars (you could comfortably fit 2 bodies in the boot).
.

I guess popular with underbelly types too.

[lra]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Holden had no answer for it. Hell, they were even going to build their own SUV before they changed tack and shut up shop.

Hell, they were even going to build their own SUV before they were told by GM they had been naughty boys doing the VE, and to stop showing off about how things should be done, and so their pocket money was taken away.

[TheInterceptor]

Territory is much much better equipped than a falcon wagon, plus awd. With 30 odd storage compartments compared to 3 in the wagon, its wider inside, quieter, plusher, easier to get in and out of if you have a crook back, and can fit 30" or so tyres on one without looking out of place .. I see the appeal.

But the IRS does not impress me (but id be the kind of person to put a live axle in, and yes its been done before and I contemplate this thought a lot as I don't see the labour value in awd converting a wagon).
And the load space isn't the same however isn't bad either. Its more than a sportswagon that's for sure! But now its more apples vs oranges however its fords answer to the wagon so technically comparable..

Falcon wagon was never gunna survive the new era of cars. Especially with the ever decreasing budget Ford America gave us...and it was the start of the SUV craze which meant the wagon had to be super impressive to even come close to being justifyable.

Which still doesn't get us closer to the answer of the original question of which car is the best last aussie wagon haha.

[Sprintey]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

Anyone here have any experience with the last Holden "Sandman" wagon. (Do not how they could call that a Sandman.) Very late model Dunnydore.
There is a black one I regularly see in Holbrook at the Holden dealer there.

Yes, I saw the reveal down on the coast when they were new. Sat in one (even if SV6 based they were really nice). The orange fluffy seats were not a substitute for doing a proper panel van attachment to the ute, but cost was probably a consideration. (There are panel van conversions for VT-Z and VE-F utes)

[Sprintey]

Originally Posted by simon varley

screw the sixes. it's the SS by a long, long way

Originally Posted by TheInterceptor

Yikes 20L around town!

I know, slightly out of context... my bro had black VESS wagon, that thing was an absolute beast, but 2 things: Dad's VY much cheaper to run, and watching bro try to fit all the prams and holiday gear in the VE, haha! VY FTW. Rumour was that Telstra had some say on the dimensions when the VT-Z wagon was on the drawing board, glad they did.

[Dr Terry]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Except Ford gave the public what they really wanted, the SUV. One of the main causes of the Commodores decline.

Holden had no answer for it.

Commodores sales didn't really decline until after local production had ceased.
Holden didn't have local SUV but they did have the Sportwagon which sold very well.

Back in 2010 the Commodore range alone outsold the Falcon range & Territory combined.

They did have the Captiva which love it or hate it was the best selling SUV for its first 4 or 5 years.

Dr Terry

[Sprintey]

Special mention to the AUI/II/III V8 Fairmont wagon, the last wagon Ford actually marketed and differentiated, 20 years ago!

But they did knock it out of the park with the Territory, so all is forgiven (until they failed to replace that one)

[arronm]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Except Ford gave the public what they really wanted, the SUV. One of the main causes of the Commodores decline.

Holden had no answer for it. Hell, they were even going to build their own SUV before they changed tack and shut up shop.

Yeh ford really know what the public want. Like NO V8 for most of the 80s and early 90s

They also make great diff bushes and heat exchangers

Go Ford.

And i bet holden sold more v8 commodores than ford did territories during the time they were produced.

What happened to V8 territory. Thats right we got a crap diesel instead.

[BENT_8]

Whilst many will point to the trend towards SUV's as a reason why the Wagon died, lets be quite clear on one thing, despite the Territories higher roof line, the cargo space is no where near as usable or convenient as a Falcon wagon.

I've realised in the past 12 or so months just how versatile my BF3 was, how economic it was on gas, how much better it carries a load and how much more I miss it everyday, if I could turn back the clock 15 months the first thing i'd do is take back my wagon, the Wife's Camry and pretend we'd never set foot in a Territory.

The Territory is a nice tourer don't get me wrong, but a Falcon wagon it isn't.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by arronm

Every falcon wagon had leaf springs. What a joke.

What's the joke

It's the exact reason I prefer the ute (RTV) over the Territory.

The Control Blade IRS was a POS

[TheInterceptor]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

…...

The Territory is a nice tourer don't get me wrong, but a Falcon wagon it isn't.

Yep that's the thing, falcon was huge inside! The Tezza isn't bad for an suv body but its no match. But for what it makes up in cargo space it makes up for in other areas but that depends on what you look for in a vehicle.

Originally Posted by Sprintey

….
But they did knock it out of the park with the Territory, so all is forgiven (until they failed to replace that one)

Technically, the Everest replaces it even though its a totally different segment...typical Ford really.

Originally Posted by arronm

……..

What happened to V8 territory. Thats right we got a crap diesel instead.

The diesel was a good thing, the timing however was too late. It needed to come sooner. V8 would have been perfect to sell alongside the F6X. But again, it was s..t canned.
At least now they are going to put a v8 in the Raptor but that's a 100k+ for an unimpressively built vehicle, but they are doing it because everyone is going ape s...t over dual cabs as they have (and still are) over SUVs.

[Sprintey]

The control blade IRS is not fun when you get the bill to rebuild it. A pity as the whole suspension on a Terry works so well when everything is replaced or new.

When I started the thread I chose 6's as I had an eye toward painless long term ownership of an Aussie wagon, and its loadspace, now that they are gone.

So far BF3 and VY 6's are winning, with all the special mentions noticed along the way. Though a VF2 would be tempting while they are still newish...

[Sprintey]

Originally Posted by TheInterceptor

Technically, the Everest replaces it even though its a totally different segment...typical Ford really.

I know it's supposed to replace it but I'm not motivated to go back to ladder frame chassis and all that goes with it. If I did that type of vehicle, it'd be Toyota anyway (until the 2.8 and V8TD, no thanks on those ones)

Originally Posted by arronm

What happened to V8 territory. Thats right we got a crap diesel instead.

Arron, there was a crew in Perth that was dropping the 5.4L V8 into the Territory back in SY days, they did a couple and advertised it. I considered that if my Barra died, I might try this. There would be lots of weight and bulk over the front though, so the Turbo probably made more sense.

Now, has anyone converted a late model Terry to supercharged 5.0? That would be about the nicest thing you could do to the diesel ;)

[TheInterceptor]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

I know it's supposed to replace it but I'm not motivated to go back to ladder frame chassis and all that goes with it. If I did that type of vehicle, it'd be Toyota anyway (until the 2.8 and V8TD, no thanks on those ones))

…...

Yeah im the same here. Agreed.

Originally Posted by Sprintey

The control blade IRS is not fun when you get the bill to rebuild it. A pity as the whole suspension on a Terry works so well when everything is replaced or new.

When I started the thread I chose 6's as I had an eye toward painless long term ownership of an Aussie wagon, and its loadspace, now that they are gone.

So far BF3 and VY 6's are winning, with all the special mentions noticed along the way. Though a VF2 would be tempting while they are still newish...

Also agreed. Great when it works but when it all flogs out its a pain. My Subaru Outback is the same. $1600 quote to rebush the rubbish crap design rear end (ended up buying a wreck for $200 and swapped the backsides over).
This is where leaf springs (or at least live axle) comes into its own and shines!

Its hard for me to vote.
I reckon B series for long term cost, ease of ownership, ruggedness and simplicity, but Adventra for overall equipment, space and versatility and options. Both are decent full size station wagons that we will probably never really see the likes of again.

I do admire Holden more for actually giving things a go building different models!

Anybody know what the backside is like regarding bushes and complexity in an Adventra? ( and if theres a locker available out of curiositys sake?)

[arronm]

Originally Posted by Raptor

What's the joke

It's the exact reason I prefer the ute (RTV) over the Territory.

The Control Blade IRS was a POS

I currently own all the cars we are talking about VE SS wagon , VF SS wagon , Territory TTG and BF3 wagon. The leaf spring wagon drives and rides the worst. Its just an ancient piece of tech that shouldn't be on a car since 1970.

So owning all i think Iam a good judge.

[DFB FGXR6]

Originally Posted by arronm

Ford are useless. Then mustang had leaf springs till 2015

No it didn't.

[arronm]

I stand corrected. Coils and live axle. Still crap in 2015 for a performance car. Ford always behind

[XR Martin]

1978 Mustang was the last one to have leafs