Workers to vote against pay cut to save Holden

[atec77]

Originally Posted by stazza

Holden needs to just lay down and die already.

Holden could easily drop the profit margin on imported parts from the mother ship , drop some of the management and floor staff and run for decades more in a very profitable situation and deliver what we want to drive , personally I would drop parity and introduce a heavy import for anything not assembled here with at least 70% local content whilst taxing all the built imports to death .

[EBII Fairmont]

Originally Posted by P6LTD351

Yes, the job market is tougher than the glory days of pre GFC, BUT...there are jobs available if people are prepared to do them...will people 'LOWER' themselves to clean toilets if necessary? Maybe work in a slaughter house? And while I may be lucky not to be in a position to seek out work outside of my comfort zone at the moment, things can change quickly. There are plenty of jobs out there, just not as many in the category that people WANT.

It is very tough. I am an electrician by trade, and have been out of work for just over a year. I decided to take the chance and do my European holiday while things were slow. I returned to Aus earlier this year to find things were worse. I am at the point where I am applying to get back into Coles and any other job I can find. Unfortunately there are more people out there looking for work than I initially believed and it is really cut throat. The electrical job I interviewed for, there were more than 200 applicants. Things are getting harder and tougher. It comes down to how smart you were with what you had while times were good. If these people can't last longer than 6 months without a job, then they did something wrong. I go by the rule of live under your means so when **** hits the fan, there is something there to keep you going.

[imugli]

Originally Posted by dddd

And when Holden close down just watch them scream and cry. It reminds me of dealing with spoilt children, most brain washed by their unions.

I remember an ongoing news story many years ago (back when Hawke was in power), about a small manufacturer who employed about twenty people. The unions had been picketing the place for about 3 weeks demanding the usual, more money, better conditions, etc. All the time the owner of the business was continually saying he can only just keep the doors open as it was claiming the business was running at a small loss as it is. Anyway after about 3-4 weeks the owner of the company walks out and announces that he has just put the company into receivership and all was lost.

The bit that I have never forgotten is the reaction from the union heavy weights there. They all cheered with joy, stating to the news cameras that this is a lesson that all should learn by, "no one should cross the unions or we will bring you down"(or words to that effect). However employees reactions were not the same as the unions and most were totally shocked as it began to sink into their heads that they longer had a job.

Unions true interest is in power, not people.

Completely agree.

I remember during the GFC days, Bosch asked their employees to take reduced hours, offering to let employees take it as annual leave, sick leave etc. Unions rejected it, so they sacked 10% of their workers straight up.

I'm sure some of the guys that lost their job had probably been there forever and a day, and would have little to no hope of finding jobs elsewhere, especially at that time.

Make no mistake, unions are political organisations first and foremost and they'll sacrifice their own in a heartbeat if they think it will increase their power or gain them some sympathy with the public.

[stazza]

Not all Unions are bad.

[Revolver]

Originally Posted by fte50

Nothing insane about it mate - its called progress.
Manufacturers relocating offshore has very very little to do with employee wages & conditions alone

Actually it does. If not, why is manufacturing moving offshore then?

Wages & conditions are not the only problem, but they are a big part of it.

To think that its not, is sheer ignorance.

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by Revolver 45

Actually it does. If not, why is manufacturing moving offshore then?

Wages & conditions are not the only problem, but they are a big part of it.

To think that its not, is sheer ignorance.

Actually i agree . Thats why i would take redundancy and go on the dole . Pays more than overseas wages. Ohh and if i was really in the know . Get a housing commision home also . Why work

[borough]

Originally Posted by atec77

Holden could easily drop the profit margin on imported parts from the mother ship , drop some of the management and floor staff and run for decades more in a very profitable situation and deliver what we want to drive , personally I would drop parity and introduce a heavy import for anything not assembled here with at least 70% local content whilst taxing all the built imports to death .

With an idea like that it is a good thing that you are not in charge. It would put the country back 40 years and leave us shutoff from the global economy. It is time to accept that it is too expensive to manufacture things here anymore. For a start wages, the thai assembly line worker gets $2 an hour, the Holden worker gets $30-50 an hour. The market here is small, Australia's population is 22 million, compared to 314 million in the USA and 739 million for Europe. Ohh, and we are in the middle of nowhere. Holden and Ford stuck with building unique cars for a small market with little or no exports. It seemed to be OK when 70,000 units were sold a year, not so good when you are selling only 20,000 a year. Toyota on the otherhand build a global car here and export it. They also stopped building the Corolla here in 1999. You have to wonder why Holden choose to build the Cruze here?

In the end I believe it is not if, but when Holden will close thier manufacturing here. To those saying that Ford it the hounerable thing, I beg to differ. I think Ford have given thier workers false hope in saying the plants will close in 2016. It will only take a few more months of bad sales before Ford will decide to stop the damage to thier brand and pull out in 2014. The FU will not be built, leaving the FG MK2 as the last Falcon.

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by borough

With an idea like that it is a good thing that you are not in charge. It would put the country back 40 years and leave us shutoff from the global economy. It is time to accept that it is too expensive to manufacture things here anymore. For a start wages, the thai assembly line worker gets $2 an hour, the Holden worker gets $30-50 an hour. The market here is small, Australia's population is 22 million, compared to 314 million in the USA and 739 million for Europe. Ohh, and we are in the middle of nowhere. Holden and Ford stuck with building unique cars for a small market with little or no exports. It seemed to be OK when 70,000 units were sold a year, not so good when you are selling only 20,000 a year. Toyota on the otherhand build a global car here and export it. They also stopped building the Corolla here in 1999. You have to wonder why Holden choose to build the Cruze here?

In the end I believe it is not if, but when Holden will close thier manufacturing here. To those saying that Ford it the hounerable thing, I beg to differ. I think Ford have given thier workers false hope in saying the plants will close in 2016. It will only take a few more months of bad sales before Ford will decide to stop the damage to thier brand and pull out in 2014. The FU will not be built, leaving the FG MK2 as the last Falcon.

I kind of agree with this too . I think we should just become bill stampers . Shop assistants and warehouse technicians der de der der der der

[GASWAGON]

I'm surprised Ford have given there employees so much warning actually....why didn't they just come out and say the truth and offer redundencies and close in 2014?

[LeadFoot81]

Originally Posted by stazza

I don't wish anyone to lose their job either. But it IS going to happen, so I wish holden would just admit it and get it over and done with. They just can't stand to 'lose' against Ford. They are as much of sore losers as their fans are and can't admit the obvious and take it on the chin.

Originally Posted by DanielXR8

Oh please. You think Holden is in a race to see who can sack the most people and lose the most market share? Because Holden hates Ford being a bigger failure.

Yeah ok.

I read Stazza's comment as:
Holden/GM management wants to continue building cars in Australia after Ford wraps up it's local manufacturing just so they can rack up one final win against their old arch enemy, in spite of it being fiscally irresponsible.

[KIWI-1]

'twas interesting watching and listening to the WORKERS leaving Holden on Friday.
Sure there will be dark days ahead but the common theme was sad to be leaving, made lots of friends, off to the pub, getting on with life after Holden.

[Nikked]

...and people thought Ford handled their shut down poorly...

[LeadFoot81]

Originally Posted by EF_6

I'm surprised Ford have given there employees so much warning actually....why didn't they just come out and say the truth and offer redundancies?

What is the truth, as you understand it?

(In theory) Ford have come out and been honest with everyone (their staff, suppliers, the government, the general public) because the programs have been approved, the cheques have been signed, and the work has been done, on models that will run until 2016...and they're being honourable and keeping their end of the bargain.

Being a bit more savvy, I'd say that they believe that being honest will help smooth the transition from having a part locally manufactured range of products to a fully imported range of products.

Whether all of the above is true, or just the smooth transition bit, is of course debatable. A lot of members think they're not being honourable in any way shape or form...I think they've (at the very least) been smart about this transition.

[LeadFoot81]

Originally Posted by Nikked

...and people thought Ford handled their shut down poorly...

For as long as I can remember, GM/Holden management have had a 'prima donna b***h' vibe about them. Their smugness was one of the reasons I became a such a big fan of Ford.

[zilo]

Originally Posted by KIWI-1

'twas interesting watching and listening to the WORKERS leaving Holden on Friday.
Sure there will be dark days ahead but the common theme was sad to be leaving, made lots of friends, off to the pub, getting on with life after Holden.

yep...a lot of them probably also worked for mitsubishi before and still have all that redundancy payout still in the bank....

[RHR]

Well that was a well thought out reply

[Nikked]

That needs some explaining...what brought that on?

[pottery beige]

poor au mont.. $10 says he was hacked / logged in / un attended / computery...

[KIWI-1]

Originally Posted by pottery beige

poor au mont.. $10 says he was hacked / logged in / un attended / computery...

+1
Sorry daddy?

[fte50]

Originally Posted by Revolver 45

Actually it does. If not, why is manufacturing moving offshore then?

Wages & conditions are not the only problem, but they are a big part of it.

To think that its not, is sheer ignorance.

Seems though the only ignorance here is all the experts throwing around 'facts' when they don't have the slightest clue.

As I said, wages and conditions in this country are of little significance to the big players eg. Ford/GM/Toyota. Our wages/conditions are actually cost competitive given our expertise, stable political climate, vast resources on hand coupled with a very flexible workforce. And believe me, they have acknowledged that many times - the current media stunt by GM is more of a desperate public conditioning then trying to freeze wages he knows will never happen.

So why do they relocate ??-
Firstly believe in the Australian Lima Agreement.
From there on, the Asian countries are the reason. They poach business but more so the massive corporations and the deals offered are unheard of in Australia.
Try free land, free utilities for up to 10yrs, no payroll taxes, reduced government taxes, less government red tape/legislation eg EPA etc, legislated super contributions, and believe me the list goes on and on.

That my friend is the reason, and when you consider Australian manufacturers are now having to spend money on new plants or plant updates, its purely not worth it.

Just like a lot of experts here claim "Ford did the maths" , yes they did but they could have built Focus here as was originally planned, but the big boys are basically getting free factories elsewhere, its not about saving wages alone.

[fte50]

Originally Posted by LeadFoot81

For as long as I can remember, GM/Holden management have had a 'prima donna b***h' vibe about them. Their smugness was one of the reasons I became a such a big fan of Ford.

Which dept. and what dealings did u have with them ??

[LeadFoot81]

Originally Posted by fte50

Just like a lot of experts here claim "Ford did the maths" , yes they did but they could have built Focus here as was originally planned, but the big boys are basically getting free factories elsewhere, its not about saving wages alone.

Isn't Fomoco choosing not to build the Focus here because they're basically getting free factories overseas proof that they did their sums and they didn't add up? Or rather, the sums added up *until* they were offered amazing deals by Asian governments? You're right though, there are so many reasons manufacturing is going overseas.

[fte50]

Added for or didn't add against, u get the jist.

[LeadFoot81]

Originally Posted by fte50

Which dept. and what dealings did u have with them ??

During the AU years, Holden management were particularly brutal with their comments re: Ford Australia, there was one guy in particular who loved rubbing the Commodore's sales in Ford's face. One comment re: the AU Series 2..."if you put lipstick on a pig it's still a pig"...bit harsh.

However, at the moment I can't remember the guy's name. I never met him. I don't know the colour of his eyes, or the name of his favourite song...but he was happy to have that comment put into print. That's being being a prima donna b***h in my book.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by LeadFoot81

Isn't Fomoco choosing not to build the Focus here because they're basically getting free factories overseas proof that they did their sums and they didn't add up? Or rather, the sums added up *until* they were offered amazing deals by Asian governments? You're right though, there are so many reasons manufacturing is going overseas.

There a huge advantage Thailand has over Australia and it's not just wage costs,
Thailand can export to all of its Asian neighbors and Australia without any crippling import taxes.
If Australia tries to export taxes, all of our northern neighbors put the full signs up and tax our products.

[CAT600]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

Do not vote for a pay cut . It isnt the workers wages sending holden down the gurgler .

No, its because the local manufacturers cannot compete with globally designed and built platforms.

If Holden can add 10K to the cost of a SS then all is well, but instead all that has happened over the last 10 years is the car has actually dropped 10K

Aussie wages competing in a market dominated by cheap import's built with labour at 1/10th the cost or production lines that pump out 15-20x more volume

Its not the workers fault, its not really even Holdens fault until they reach the point where it is uneconomical to operate in the country with a net profit at end of fiscal year.

It seems Holden are getting close to it if not passed it, only the exchange rate can save them, for now.

Daniel

[KIWI-1]

Economies of scale:
I think I heard that there are 17 million workers in Indian auto manufacturing.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by KIWI-1

Economies of scale:
I think I heard that there are 17 million workers in Indian auto manufacturing.

And that is just the customer complaints call centre......

[Adamz Ghia]

Originally Posted by LeadFoot81

During the AU years, Holden management were particularly brutal with their comments re: Ford Australia, there was one guy in particular who loved rubbing the Commodore's sales in Ford's face. One comment re: the AU Series 2..."if you put lipstick on a pig it's still a pig"...bit harsh.

However, at the moment I can't remember the guy's name. I never met him. I don't know the colour of his eyes, or the name of his favourite song...but he was happy to have that comment put into print. That's being being a prima donna b***h in my book.

Ross McKenzie, sales ans marketing manager I think he was.
The AU v VT, BA v VY years were fun. Was the last time we really had a car guy in Geoff Polities running Ford and another car guy in Peter Hanenberger running Holden, and a bunch of car nuts behind them building and designing the cars. They were passionate about their companies and the products they made. These days it's a bunch of accountants running the show. Take me back to 1999 any day...

[LeadFoot81]

Originally Posted by Adamz Ghia

Ross McKenzie, sales ans marketing manager I think he was.
The AU v VT, BA v VY years were fun. Was the last time we really had a car guy in Geoff Polities running Ford and another car guy in Peter Hanenberger running Holden, and a bunch of car nuts behind them building and designing the cars. They were passionate about their companies and the products they made. These days it's a bunch of accountants running the show. Take me back to 1999 any day...

Yes, that's the guy.

Those times were fun because Holden and Ford could (seemingly) do no wrong. Even though AU wasn't that well received, Ford were moving thousands every month. And it seemed like Tickford and HSV were realeasing new models and updating existing ones every other month, going head to head, blow for blow, splashing cash like there was no tomorrow.