wheel spin

[05MkIIFutura]

Originally Posted by Danny

Yeah? Well thats Front wheel drives for you smart@rse...... .so take your cooking model falcon and Fu©k off.

Why on earth are you getting so personal and angry about this. I am not suggesting for one minute that your car is anything better or worse than any other car, I simply made a joke that supports why i chose to buy a car with a bit more Nm of torque. God knows that your Fiesta would run circles around a Falcon when in the City, but it doesnt make me that angry!!

There is no need to get personal about it.

Originally Posted by Danny

We're in a world that is heavily adopting its use now, And Modern DSC and TC systems can almost abolish all problems involved in power FW cars.

You do know that TC works by cutting HP, dont you?? (No this is not a shot at fwd, all TC works the same!!)

.

[photn]

Originally Posted by 05MkIIFutura

errr, houston, i think we have a problem

definition of anology: drawing a comparison in order to show a similarity in some respect

So when I say "A good analogy is that front wheel drive car is like a car that uses the rear wheels to do most of the braking effort", you need to take special notice of the word "LIKE".

What that "like" word does is shows similarities in the reasons for fwd cars spinning driven wheels and why rear wheels are not used for braking, which is transfer of weight.

So that sentence does absolutely DOES NOT say a fwd car brakes mainly with its rear wheels.

Maybe next time you should take more itme to read the post before getting all narky and jumping for peoples necks.

maybee next time you should make an Anology of sumthing that makes sense not all this mumbo jumbo! what car uses rear bias than front? ive never heard of one.

[Pieoter]

Originally Posted by 05MkIIFutura

errr, houston, i think we have a problem

definition of anology: drawing a comparison in order to show a similarity in some respect

So when I say "A good analogy is that front wheel drive car is like a car that uses the rear wheels to do most of the braking effort", you need to take special notice of the word "LIKE".

What that "like" word does is shows similarities in the reasons for fwd cars spinning driven wheels and why rear wheels are not used for braking, which is transfer of weight.

So that sentence does absolutely DOES NOT say a fwd car brakes mainly with its rear wheels.

Maybe next time you should take more itme to read the post before getting all narky and jumping for peoples necks.

But there is almost no similarities to a FWD and rear brake bias. For one thing rear brake bias leads to oversteer and FWD are prone to understeer. I understand what you tried to say but it was a poor analogy.

I hardly jumped for your neck.

Danny. No amount of electronic gizmos are gonna reverse the laws of physics. Given 2 identical cars one FWD the other RWD the RWD will usually be quicker off the line (unless your running low power or extreme levels of grip than won't spin the wheels). Fact remains off the line you will have less grip than a similar RWD car.

[05MkIIFutura]

Originally Posted by photn

maybee next time you should make an Anology of sumthing that makes sense not all this mumbo jumbo! what car uses rear bias than front? ive never heard of one.

No car uses rear in preference to front for braking, because the rears cant have the same tractive effort due to shift of weight!!!

Thats my point > a disadvantage of front-wheel drive is the lack of traction.

photn, u said earlier that "there is 60-70 percent of the weight of the car in the front over the wheels", and my reply was (summarised) "yes, it might, but unfortunately due to weight shift, front wheel drive cars will still suffer badly from wheelspin. (Like a car which is braked heavily by the rear brakes will suffer badly from lock-ups)

I hope everyone understands me now, there was definately no need for everyone to take my opinion (right or wrong) so personally

[Pieoter]

A WRC car will have a preference to the rear when it comes ot braking but thats beside the point.

A FWD will have less overall traction but its hardly what i would call a lack of traction plant your foot in any car and chances are you will go beyond the capabilities of the tyre. This seems to be a common idea among ppl that buy falcons and commadores that FWD will mean you have no traction at all. Its called throttle control people we arn't computer so stop trying to drive like binary code.

0-100 in 7second seems to be the limit for road going FWD cars and that is more than quick enough for 99% of people. There are also plenty FWD that will put most cars to shame around a track (Clio sport for one)

[photn]

Originally Posted by 05MkIIFutura

No car uses rear in preference to front for braking, because the rears cant have the same tractive effort due to shift of weight!!!

Thats my point > a disadvantage of front-wheel drive is the lack of traction.

photn, u said earlier that "there is 60-70 percent of the weight of the car in the front over the wheels", and my reply was (summarised) "yes, it might, but unfortunately due to weight shift, front wheel drive cars will still suffer badly from wheelspin. (Like a car which is braked heavily by the rear brakes will suffer badly from lock-ups)

I hope everyone understands me now, there was definately no need for everyone to take my opinion (right or wrong) so personally

okay.....thats true in ideal situations. BUT you where comparing a fiesta to a falcon or a larger car. remember the remark about the 4cly . so basically both cars will suffer from wheel spin, but the smaller car will accelerate quicker (may not be by much) do to power to weight ratio and the fact that there will be less tourque comming out of a 4cly than a 6 cly at the wheels. (there are some exceptions) and therefore less tourque meaning less wheel spin and less the ability to hold the wheel spin resulting in grip and acceleration.

but all this is in an "IDEAL" world, which we all live in, in our own minds. :monkes: :alien2:

[Pieoter]

Originally Posted by photn

PURE TRASH

Sean seriously STFU if you don't know what your talking about.

That post was one fo the dumbest things ive read in a long time

[Danny]

Originally Posted by 05MkIIFutura

You do know that TC works by cutting HP, dont you?? (No this is not a shot at fwd, all TC works the same!!)

.

Blimey teddy, you must assume that Fiesta owners know nothing about cars..... _

Yes, In fact did YOU know that the Mazda 3 MPS controls torque steering under full load in first and second gears by modifying the throttle valve position and employing boost pressure control via the wastegate of the turbocharger?

And Pie, You're not entirely corrrect either mate, Firstly I NEVER said that the "electro gizmos" make the car takeoff like a RWD I merely said that Problems like axle tramp, and initial spinning on takeoffs and cornering spin are becoming problems of yesterday so read what its written properly.

Also, your comment about Fwd having a 7 second limit is BS. The MPS is good for Oh? 6.2s or thereabouts to 100 (Even with its HP cutting system). And the Vauxhall VXR is around 6.5. Also the RSC 182 Cup has been clocked at 6.8 by EVO magazine and Wheels. I could sit here and throw more sub 7 second hot hatch times at you but I have better things to do.

Oh and STFU about Photn too, Grow up and learn to live with the fact that not everyone is as Mechanically, and Technically savvy as you.

[Teki04]

I'm confused about the weight transfer.... if the Fiesta is that bad, why does it handle better and get BETTER lateral Gs then the Falcon?! OBVIOUSLY it would be quicker in the corners. Which is what this is all about. The weight transfer in the Fiesta is extremely controlled.

If your talking about straight lines, some FWDs CAN take off much quicker then RWD cars. One of those would be mine... to think all FWD cars are slugs is just pure stupidity. Also, my ESP NEVER cuts power, but uses the brakes to control the wheels. Sure, it sometimes slows down the car (not power)... depends on the situation. I've also been fortunate enough to see a Mazda3 MPS in action, and can assure you it is MUCH quicker then many RWD cars.

Oh, and through my car and a Falcon (Futura) on the track, and I can gaurantee the falcon will not keep up.

[Teki04]

Just to let you know,

Compared to the Auto Typhoon.

0-100:5.4
400m: 13.5@175.1
Wakefield Track Time: 36.5

The Mazda3 MPS did well with...

0-100:6.2
400m: 14.3@166.8
Wakefield Track Time: 37.4

So, to say FWDs are slow is pure idiocy. Move on, please... this debate has been done before!

Sure, RWDs can be faster... but yours is not. Sorry dude.

[photn]

Originally Posted by Pieoter

Sean seriously STFU if you don't know what your talking about.

That post was one fo the dumbest things ive read in a long time

i agree. lol heheheeheh when your at work and your bored out of your mind tell me that you wont type anything that will make you sort of think.

p.s im in dada land atm

[05MkIIFutura]

Originally Posted by Teki04

So, to say FWDs are slow is pure idiocy. Move on, please... this debate has been done before!

Sure, RWDs can be faster... but yours is not. Sorry dude.

I think everyone has lost the idea of what this thread is about. We are not discussing if or if not rwd is quicker that fwd. I dont really care anyway, and i have admitted earlier that i never drive my car with the aim of getting that extra 1/100th of a second 0-100km/h.

I was bringing the point that the wheel slip / axle tramp is encouraged by this transfer of weight, and thats it.

If it makes people happy to attack each other based on what car they own, so be it. I personally dont understand why it worrys people so much.

[Pieoter]

I said about the limit. Sure you will get a few cars with sub 7 second times but not mainstream cars. Granted some will go faster your 100% right. The Mazda 3 MPS control torque steer under load by limiting power. I also think this is the first mention of torque steer in this whole thread.

Danny I didn't say the FWD would axle tramp and rip a massive burnout on start did I? I never mentioned these at all. The point is that two identical cars one being FWD and the other being RWD would have the FWD being quicker initially off the line because dyanamic weight transfer would provide the RWD with more grip and the FWD with less grip (Less grip = Slower acceleration). Even without any drivers aids you can get a FWD to take off quick and clean if your good with the throttle and clutch.

Oh Teki, Weight transfer on takeoff has nothing to do with handling. Also "my ESP NEVER cuts power, but uses the brakes to control the wheels" if you think about it you just contradicted yourself there. By applying the brakes your reducing effective power.

This isn't a FWD vs RWD debate and shouldn't be. The sole point that should be discussed is Weight transfer on takeoff (and braking if you want)

[Teki04]

Originally Posted by 05MkIIFutura

I was bringing the point that the wheel slip / axle tramp is encouraged by this transfer of weight, and thats it.

Modern day FWD cars (with sporty intentions) have minimised this dramatically. I can think of a few... Golf GTI, Mazda3 MPS, Clio Sport 182 (And 197, which actually has a completely new front suspension to minimise Torque steer), 207 GT etc.

So really, the debate is long over due.

Weight transfer CAN be an issue in some cars (Like Kias, Hyandai etc) but please, drive a Fiesta before you go on claiming the Fiesta has weight transfer problems.

[Teki04]

The problem originated from the fact a little hoon wanted to do a burnout in a Fiesta.

1) RWD will do it better
2) In either FWD or RWD cars you must be stupid to do it

Pieoter... Sorry, I was refering to cornering (we sort of spoke about which car was faster...)

OH, and with ESP on, I find the take off quicker. It limits wheelspin, and gets the most power down. However, should you know how to take off properly without ESP engaged, it is the quicker way.

On another note. The Polo GTI has some sort of launch control, is that right Mitch?

[zing]

Originally Posted by 05MkIIFutura

If it makes people happy to attack each other based on what car they own..

Originally Posted by 05MkIIFutura

SOLUTION: stop trying to do burnouts in a 4cyld fwd and buy a larger rwd with a bit more kw

hypocricy? u too 'attacked' based on what car we own.

[Pieoter]

Teki yes while they don't axle tramp, spin tyres and torque steering (via advanced in suspension geometry and drivers aids) it doesn't take away from physics which says that weight transfer will reduce the avaible traction in ALL fwd cars.

When you see cars driving you will notice the manual ones will lift the rear end slighty when changing gears. This is weight transfer. As the car accelerates weight is taken off the front tyres and shifted to the rear. The less weight you have over the axle the less grip you have.

Its not a real disadvantage in modern times where it's effects can be limited it is the main disadvantage of a FWD apart from the front tyres having to handling more than its fair share of load.

The Polo GTI has electronic diff locking that works upto speed of 40km/h where a regular traction control system takes over.

[photn]

Originally Posted by Teki04

The problem originated from the fact a little hoon wanted to do a burnout in a Fiesta.

im not a little hoon, i just noticed when the wheels spun either in the wet or dry they jumped and my whole steering wheel shook. i do occasionally do burnouts, but not on a regular basis. it was just a question weather i should be worried about the shake.

it:

[joshf2]

*munches popcorn*

how did i miss this one......

Originally Posted by photn

it was just a question weather i should be worried about the shake

yes, you should be, it might hurt those little hands of yours

[photn]

Originally Posted by joshf2

*munches popcorn*

how did i miss this one......



yes, you should be, it might hurt those little hands of yours

cool.i might have to do some excercise and get some muscles in my arms and hands.


heheheehehehehe

[Danny]

Originally Posted by photn

cool.i might have to do some excercise and get some muscles in my arms and hands.

And a recent quote for ye by MitchLX: www.bunnyteens.com

Enjoy.

[mitch_lx]

Ahhh Danny,

that was One of my finest posts and contributions to this forum, if i may say so myself.

Teki in regards to ''launch control'' the polo doesnt have that (see M5 bmw).

But it does have a few control systems the car has to improve traction, as pie mentioned it has an electronically controlled diff which locks the wheels from 0-40 kmph.

So in other words, if you want to be able to spin the wheels on take off, you have to give it enough power to be able to make BOTH of them spin.

Danny test drove the GTI polo a few days ago and he mentioned that the TCS system was quite intrusive.

To be completely honest the GTI i drove a couple months back was supurb. I test drove it in the wet and i was giving it a fair amount of stick and it just stuck to the road. The system only cut in when you started getting too silly, just a nice safety net to keep you inline.

Off the line i didnt have any problems getting power down either.

Different driving styles i guess.

[Teki04]

Originally Posted by mitch_lx

Teki in regards to ''launch control'' the polo doesnt have that (see M5 bmw).

But it does have a few control systems the car has to improve traction, as pie mentioned it has an electronically controlled diff which locks the wheels from 0-40 kmph.

In other words... it helps the 'launch' of the vehicle. Same thing :lookedat:

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by Teki04

In other words... it helps the 'launch' of the vehicle. Same thing :lookedat:

Not close, at all.

[Pieoter]

As steffo said. Not remotly close

[JD2004]

Traction or no traction my XR5 is *** quick, and i dont get tramping either.. ahh wonderful!!!

Its really a great car guys.. untill the loan repayments come out!!!!

Luke.

[Ives]

^^^ gosh, I wished you live in Sydney so i can check it out

I saw someone took delivery for a silver XR5T when I was shopping for my Fiesta. The look on his face was priceless (in a good way). hahah.

[JD2004]

Im coming up to Sydney soon for a weekend and il arange a meet with some of the eurofords. so then you can perv on some of them

Luke

[mitch_lx]

Yeah teki the EDL (electronic diff lock) isnt remotely similar to Launch control

Launch control controls everything from RPM and clutch slipping points to limiting wheelspin etc etc

Yeah i guess you could call the EDL a technology used to control your launch a bit better.. but thats as far as it goes.

[photn]

damn ****en right.!!!!lol you better boy. lol. cant wait.