AU 5.0 header Q's

[Sox]

Originally Posted by XH5LWEPN

The 200kw got the Crow 621339 cam, the 220kw got the 631338, if you look at the lift figures on Crows website (listings are for 1.6 rockers) you'll see that the 200kw definately wasnt running 1.6 rockers from factory. Both were fitted with 1.7's.

There you go.

Edit - I just searched on the 1.6/1.7 rocker issue, and it seems there's a fair amount of debate about it.
Are you certain of your info?
Some claim they have found 1.6 Crane rockers, with others 1.7 YT rockers, all apparently on 200kw engines.

[b2tf]

Originally Posted by Sox

Perhaps they were the 220, snuck in while no one was looking?
Does it have the engine oil cooler?

No, neither of them did. Not that lucky.

[XH5LWEPN]

How certain are the people that the Crane's were 1.6..? Im sure a member here not long ago found crane rockers on his and checked part number and turned out to be 1.7's.
I cant see Ford running that Crow cam with those little lift figures with 1.6 rockers and making the power they did. Especially in comparison with the 220.

[crakrz]

In the For Sale section a couple of weeks ago there was a guy selling his 621339 cam that he had purchased from crow. The label on the end of the box actually had part no. 621339 with 220kw underneath it.
It was in the picture.

This was my understanding also. 200kw 621338 with 1.6rr (some are 1.7's), 220kw and 250kw 621339 with 1.7's.
250kw variation was slightly retarded 3deg to soften the low rpm torque. There have been instances of original T3 owners finding 1.6's on their strokers too. The factory did some trial and errors 'on the fly' that's for sure.
-Craig

[Sox]

Originally Posted by XH5LWEPN

How certain are the people that the Crane's were 1.6..? Im sure a member here not long ago found crane rockers on his and checked part number and turned out to be 1.7's.
I cant see Ford running that Crow cam with those little lift figures with 1.6 rockers and making the power they did. Especially in comparison with the 220.

What you're saying makes a lot of sense.
I'm only certain of what I do, the only problem is, I even forget 1/2 of that.

[XH5LWEPN]

Not wrong mate! It gets like that!

[Whoosha]

13.7 in mine was done stock headers, unopened ,unichip tune, CAI and the zorst dropped at the cats with a couple of hotdogs bolted on to keep the noise down a bit , Rule of thumb for modders is go over kill just incase you carnt stop modding ,then you wont need to buy stuff twice

[Sox]

Originally Posted by Whoosha

13.7 in mine was done stock headers, unopened ,unichip tune, CAI and the zorst dropped at the cats with a couple of hotdogs bolted on to keep the noise down a bit , Rule of thumb for modders is go over kill just incase you carnt stop modding ,then you wont need to buy stuff twice

Unbolting the standard exhaust could be worth 5kw, the tune maybe another 5kw, and the CAI bugger all.

Pretty awesome from what is essentially a factory standard 5L.

Is the gearing standard?
What was the 60ft time and mph?

[xr8ute]

Originally Posted by Grobbo

Well according to the info on this site (AU XR8 basic questions answered) the 185 and the 200 are identical motors, aside from the headers. I think I've also read that in an article elsewhere too. (Autospeed)

That thread is full of information that is both contradictory and some simply incorrect.

Jeffs reply is correct; the AU XR8 185kw and AU XR8 200kw have the same headers.

[CRAIGAU3220]

Originally Posted by Sox

I think Craig once told me he had 4-1's, dunno the brand.

Yes, Pacemaker PH4006.

Managed quite a few 13.7x with stock headers then once the pacemakers were fitted it hit the 13.7x more often and then after a final re-tune from Simon ended up with half a dozen 13.6x slips.............Couldn't get a 13.6 as often as liked just when air was good and brain was communicating well with feet and gear shifting arm.

A few years back John ex (CongoXR8) had a before and after dyno run when he had his Pacemaker PH4006's fitted and I think he picked up just over 10rwkw over the stock 220 headers.

Cheers, Craig.

[XH5LWEPN]

Great times Woosha, and Craig with stock headers.

I was almost positive the 3 13sec 220's i knew of over here were all running PH4006's. A 10rwkw gain from PH4006's alone over standard headers is massive.

I assume Hurricanes give the same gains over factory?

[CRAIGAU3220]

Thanks Jeff, Yes as you know the 220 donk is a good effort from Tickford.

John did send me his before and after dyno sheet which i think is still in my old laptop somewhere?.............will try and fire it up tomorrow after work and see if I can retrieve it then post it up.

Craig.

[XH5LWEPN]

Thatd be great, hopefully its got torque on there too.

[crakrz]

I have a before and after dyno sheet of stock 220 headers then my 4001 Pacies, same day, same dyno at G&D. I will track it down out of the archives when I get a chance.

[Whoosha]

Originally Posted by crakrz

I have a before and after dyno sheet of stock 220 headers then my 4001 Pacies, same day, same dyno at G&D. I will track it down out of the archives when I get a chance.

I had about 2 weeks of dyno sheets as well as pages of arguments from the good ole days for the CAI s and various tunes but they seem to have vanished from site when G&D was sold off , will see what I have on paper at home still

[Sox]

So we have two 220's which have both run 13.7 with standard headers, virtually stock.
And the B series lads reckon our Wheezers are slugs.

[BOTTLEDUP]

Like Jeff I'm intrigued as to how the Hurricanes reportedly make such good power figures in a multitude of different Windsor combos. I have been a Pacemaker fan for a long time, but the track record (& price) of the Hurricanes has almost swayed me into trying a set on my TE...

I think you need to decide what your final goal is, 200-210rwkw is possible from GT40P heads, a cam change plus the usual bolt ons & a tune, IMHO the Hurricanes or PH4001s would be my pick here. If you do plan a new set of heads be they AFR, TFS, Edelbrock, RHS, DART etc etc I believe you should be aiming for 230-250rwkw, where the Explorer intake will become the restriction, and I would use the bigger header PH4006, or even Difilipos if you can afford them.

[raised by monkeys]

Originally Posted by BOTTLEDUP

I think you need to decide what your final goal is, 200-210rwkw is possible from GT40P heads, a cam change plus the usual bolt ons & a tune, IMHO the Hurricanes or PH4001s would be my pick here. If you do plan a new set of heads be they AFR, TFS, Edelbrock, RHS, DART etc etc I believe you should be aiming for 230-250rwkw, where the Explorer intake will become the restriction, and I would use the bigger header PH4006, or even Difilipos if you can afford them.

Sound advice. Cheers. As said, i may consider aftermarket heads depending on the budget down the track as it seems as though getting the gt40p's to breath maybe a useless venture and more economical and safer to go aftermarket, and understanding that the stock manifold will be rerstrictive, looking at having it machined just to help. I now see how people 'blow out' their budgets on their cars so easily, and ive barely started.

Thanks for the great info guys, sure to provide me with some foundation.

BTW. I might look down the hurricane path, purely for 2 reasons, a) they appear slightly cheaper b) because im not after big numbers and im sure they will be suffice anyways, i will also be able to report their performance here.

thanks again

[Sox]

Originally Posted by BOTTLEDUP

Like Jeff I'm intrigued as to how the Hurricanes reportedly make such good power figures in a multitude of different Windsor combos. I have been a Pacemaker fan for a long time, but the track record (& price) of the Hurricanes has almost swayed me into trying a set on my TE...

I'm the opposite, I've never liked any of the Pacemakers, as they mostly use pipe diameters which is larger than I necessary (and just about every other brand).
Out of 6 different brand tri-y headers, Pacemaker are the only one using 1 5/8. All the others, H&M, Advance, Hurricane, Genie, and Lukey, all use 1 1/2".
Speaks volumes.

I've never actually used the Hurricanes myself as I had a set made by a very good exhaust fabricator.
The sizes of mine match closest to the Hurricanes, and the dude who made mine said the Hurricanes are good for off the shelf headers.
He showed me plenty of dyno sheets on various combos.
It's quite amazing how bad some well respected names perform, but when you do the math, it's not hard to see why.

One of the T series lads has apparently dyno tested before and after with a few different headers and the Hurricanes came up trumps.

You've probably already guessd I don't like 4-1's at all.
The power curve is too small, and they're quite often optimised for the wrong power range, or not optimised at all.

Tri-Y's really do have the best power curve.
Having said that, there are some dud tri-Y's too, though they may not make the highest peak number.

I think you need to decide what your final goal is, 200-210rwkw is possible from GT40P heads, a cam change plus the usual bolt ons & a tune, IMHO the Hurricanes or PH4001s would be my pick here. If you do plan a new set of heads be they AFR, TFS, Edelbrock, RHS, DART etc etc I believe you should be aiming for 230-250rwkw, where the Explorer intake will become the restriction, and I would use the bigger header PH4006, or even Difilipos if you can afford them.

I doubt any of those bigger headers will outperform the Hurricanes for street use.
Doesn't matter what combo you have.

[Day-mow]

reading this makes me want to buy an XR8 :(

[crakrz]

As promised,

1/ first pic is stock as a rock with just twin 2.5" cat back system added, no tune.



2/ second pic is with Pacemaker 4001's added, still no tune.



After the custom tune was done we got 184rwkw, but I can't find that sheet anywhere.

-Craig

[Day-mow]

i find it inderesting the air fuel ratio is lower after the headers go on.

[XH5LWEPN]

Approx 13rwkw difference is great for PH4001's only.

[Sox]

Originally Posted by crakrz

As promised,

1/ first pic is stock as a rock with just twin 2.5" cat back system added, no tune.

After the custom tune was done we got 184rwkw, but I can't find that sheet anywhere.

-Craig

Good stuff.

I've just analysed those graphs a bit, and it looks like the maximum speed was approx 170kph, which is approx 6000rpm. I've rounded the figures to make it easier.

So if we work backwards, we can see the exhaust only improved power just over 116kph, which is just over 4000rpm.
I reckon a dual 2 1/4" system would work better here.

The headers did a little better and started improving things by just below 104kph, say 3500rpm.

Going by those graphs, we have only made improvement above 3500rpm, which is great for a strip only car, but if we happen to use our car on the road too, like 95% of us here, then we benefit much less as we're not sitting above 3500rpm for long.

I have seen graphs where tri'y headers improve power from idle, and work well to 6000rpm.
Don't let the peak numbers dazzle you, you can't lose sight of what our cars are predominantly used for.


BTW, don't get me wrong, they are good figures you have there, but they could be even better for the given application.

[crakrz]

Sox, I can see what you are saying here, and I give you full credit for running the numbers. I thought that I had better mention that as this is an auto, you can't even stomp hard on the loud pedal until at least 98km/h or 3000rpm without it kicking back to 2nd. So there was no way to put the engine under high load at low rpm. With a manual- yes. With my QH tuning, I can now lock the selected gear and the torque converter if I want to, but it certainly was not available to us in '05.

And you are correct about the cat back system, you can see that the ECU has gone into open loop and is providing full power enrichment by 98km/h or 3000rpm and there is no noticeable improvement until higher in the rev range.

Headers were showing an obvious large improvement all through the run. Low rpm not tested here for reasons stated above. I too would love to test these at high load from 2000rpm. I can honestly say that when the headers went on, there was no actual 'seat of the pants' difference either way. You might say what was the point? I didn't feel better or worse, but it sounded a lot different for sure. To me (in my dreams ) it had gained 100kw.

Engine is doing 4000rpm at 130km/h by the way.

Thanks for your comments, this will make a good thread for others doing a search in the future.

-Craig

[raised by monkeys]

Originally Posted by crakrz

You might say what was the point? I didn't feel better or worse, but it sounded a lot different for sure. To me (in my dreams ) it had gained 100kw

haha i was like that when i did my exhaust/headers/intake all at once in my EF xr6. Felt like id just turned my car into a street machile

Thanks for the run down SOX.

[raised by monkeys]

Originally Posted by Day-mow

reading this makes me want to buy an XR8 :(

Well, dont be a closet metro and buy a rex, get a V8.

[Sox]

Originally Posted by crakrz

Sox, I can see what you are saying here, and I give you full credit for running the numbers. I thought that I had better mention that as this is an auto, you can't even stomp hard on the loud pedal until at least 98km/h or 3000rpm without it kicking back to 2nd. So there was no way to put the engine under high load at low rpm. With a manual- yes. With my QH tuning, I can now lock the selected gear and the torque converter if I want to, but it certainly was not available to us in '05.

And you are correct about the cat back system, you can see that the ECU has gone into open loop and is providing full power enrichment by 98km/h or 3000rpm and there is no noticeable improvement until higher in the rev range.

Headers were showing an obvious large improvement all through the run. Low rpm not tested here for reasons stated above. I too would love to test these at high load from 2000rpm. I can honestly say that when the headers went on, there was no actual 'seat of the pants' difference either way. You might say what was the point? I didn't feel better or worse, but it sounded a lot different for sure. To me (in my dreams ) it had gained 100kw.

Engine is doing 4000rpm at 130km/h by the way.

Thanks for your comments, this will make a good thread for others doing a search in the future.

-Craig

Ah, an auto, they're a pain in the *** on a dyno.

One thing's for certain, it certainly shows there are considerable improvements to be had from the standard headers.

[Day-mow]

Originally Posted by raised by monkeys

Well, dont be a closet metro and buy a rex, get a V8.

theres 1 220 XR8 manual on car sales. only want 10k for it

[CRAIGAU3220]

OK found John's Dyno sheet but i must have been talking it up a little as it was 10rwhp at peak not 10rwkw, but as you can see there is a gain from go to whoa in both hp and torque over the stock 220 headers................To me a gain like that is worth it as it will get you down into the next tenth on most occasions..............also worth noting this thing made that power 201rwkw and pulled a 13.6x or two on the stock tune or as far as John knew it was a stock tune.............Would have been good to see were the AFR's were at.



Cheers, Craig.