NSW mobile phone detection cameras

[Giant Cranium]

Originally Posted by simon varley

see, I'm far from convinced. If phone usage was really such a road safety issue, the cops could have been out in force years ago policing the already existing laws, but how many people do you know have ever been done? Call me old, grumpy and cynical, but why wait until it can be automated to police this law? Revenue?

In Sydney city the motorbike police far outnumber the cars. They lane split and check drivers.

I’ve seen countless people get done. You ask any cop and they will tell you catching people on the phone would be the easiest way to meet their ‘quota’

[blueoval]

I have no issue with this rule. Anyone who is against it, is part of the problem.

[guzzis3]

Couple of points, which no one will care about because actual data is boring right ?

If you can be bothered reading the qld transport annual reports into road safety from the late 90's - early 2000's you will see when Beatie came to power and introduced speed cameras and massively increased the anti speeding campaign deaths and injuries due to carshes caused by excessive speed did not decline at all. What did change was an approximately 20% INCREASE in deaths/injuries/crashes caused by inattention. This was long before smart phones but was in part due to nokias.

When people are routinely driving over the limit they are looking for cops so as not to get booked. While doing so they automatically do their collision avoidance. Once the traffic slowed people stopped paying attention and those drivers are not safe at any speed. This wasn't helped by the "every k over is a killer" type ads. To some people that read "if I'm under I'm safe no matter what I'm doing".

As a result the decline in road trauma that had started in the late 70's abruptly stopped in 98 rose slightly and plateaued for the next 12 years until a spike in petrol prices reduced driving miles and thus the toll.

What p's me off about this current range of laws is the deliberate ambiguity. Pull over ? You can have your ignition on but the engine must be off. And of course the points made above. This is done deliberately so they can ping more people. Once again revenue disguised as safety.

[FoxtrotGolfXray 5.0]

Originally Posted by simon varley

see, I'm far from convinced. If phone usage was really such a road safety issue, the cops could have been out in force years ago policing the already existing laws, but how many people do you know have ever been done? Call me old, grumpy and cynical, but why wait until it can be automated to police this law? Revenue?

Never watch Motorbike Cops?

Season 2 Episode 3 summary includes the comment "Mark and Rohan are sick of busting driver after driver on their mobile phones with lame excuses."

Episode here:
https://7plus.com.au/motorbike-cops?...-id=MTCP02-003

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by simon varley

see, I'm far from convinced. If phone usage was really such a road safety issue, the cops could have been out in force years ago policing the already existing laws, but how many people do you know have ever been done? Call me old, grumpy and cynical, but why wait until it can be automated to police this law? Revenue?

If you stupid enough to contribute to government revenue then so be it, everyone knows they are risking a fine when using their phones illegally.
No sympathy to the dumb asses who are risking our lives.

[Franco Cozzo]

In my travels around Adelaide I've noticed they had cops in foot in the CBD looking into people's cars at intersections and cops on motorbikes checking everyone as they went past.

Here in Melbourne never seen them doing that

[BENT_8]

I don't have a problem with pinging people who are using their phones whilst driving or at lights/intersections etc. but what I have a problem with is the ambiguous rules, especially here in SA with regard to using them when 'parked' and the 'official' interpretation of that term.

In SA we are allowed to use a mobile device to make and receive a call when parked, the rule makes no mention of whether the engine can be running or not, only that 'parked' can not be at lights or queued in traffic.
I've had some people say must be switched off, some say all good to be running, the problem is the rule doesn't actually specify.

I had an incident last week with regard to this exact situation, had just left the school where the bus had sat without the engine running for around 20 minutes in 25* weather, it doesn't take long for the inside to reach much higher and so I always turn the AC on when we get under way.
Soon after leaving the school one of my new students gets up and starts wondering around the bus, I caution them but unfortunately being new Australians they don't quite understand the rules or what im saying necessarily, so my only option is to contact the school co-ordinator and notify them of the situation, this can take quite a while as they aren't always readily on hand to take a call, I have a direct line but if I was to go by the proper procedure it involves a call to the contractor, who then contacts the school, who then contacts the co-ordinator, who then contacts me, it can take 10 minutes minimum.

Obviously I cant do this whilst driving and as my first drop off was only a few hundred meters up the road I arrived there, put the bus in park as its an auto, applied the handbrake and switched on the hazard lights, I left the engine running with the AC on as it was still very warm, these AC units take a while to cool the bus.

I opened the bus door and let the 2 students, who's house i'd arrived at, out.
Now as far as im concerned I've done the right thing, waited until I stopped and parked the bus.
I reached for my phone and only just picked it up when some guy riding past on his push bike, on the footpath with no helmet might I add, stopped and started going off his head because in his mind, having the engine running, im driving whilst on the phone.
So I tried to explain the situation but he wasn't having a bar of it, threatened to call my employer etc. etc.
So when I got home I searched up the road rules, this is the rule as written for SA...

AUSTRALIAN ROAD RULES - REG 300
300—Use of mobile phones
(1) The driver of a vehicle must not use a mobile phone while the vehicle is moving, or is stationary but not parked, unless—
(a) the phone is being used to make or receive an audio phone call and the body of the phone—
(i) is secured in a mounting affixed to the vehicle while being so used; or
(ii) is not secured in a mounting affixed to the vehicle and is not being held by the driver, and the use of the phone does not require the driver, at any time while using it, to press any thing on the body of the phone or to otherwise manipulate any part of the body of the phone; or
(ab) the phone is being used as a driver's aid and—
(i) the body of the phone is secured in a mounting affixed to the vehicle while being so used; and
(ii) the use of the phone does not require the driver, at any time while using it, to press any thing on the body of the phone or otherwise to manipulate any part of the body of the phone; or
(b) the vehicle is an emergency vehicle or a police vehicle; or
(c) the driver is exempt from this rule under another law of this jurisdiction.
Offence provision.
Note—
"Emergency vehicle", "park" and "police vehicle are defined in the dictionary.

SA NOTE—
For South Australia, in addition to this rule, see regulation 44 of the Road Traffic (Road Rules—Ancillary and Miscellaneous Provisions) Regulations 2014

And this from the SA Government DPTI website..

You must not use a hand-held mobile phone while your vehicle is moving or is stationary in traffic (for example, at traffic lights). You may, however, use a hand-held mobile phone while your vehicle is parked.
If a person wishes to make or receive a call, including dialling a number and needs to touch any part of the phone to do so, that phone must be mounted (in a mounting commercially designed and manufactured for that purpose).
If the phone is being used via blue tooth, a headset or earphones without touching, holding or resting the phone on their body, the driver may touch the earpiece or headphone to operate the phone (the phone may be located anywhere in the vehicle, including the driver's pocket or pouch they are wearing).
It is an offence to create, send or look at a text, video message or email on a mobile phone.
It is an offence to make or receive a video call on a mobile phone whilst your vehicle is moving.
Drivers of police or emergency vehicles are exempt.

Now I understand why some people would consider having your engine running as not 'parked' but if I we're to pull up in my car in a zone marked with a NO PARKING sign and left my engine running for half an hour, am I parked?

Thoughts..

[stig_3754]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

In my travels around Adelaide I've noticed they had cops in foot in the CBD looking into people's cars at intersections and cops on motorbikes checking everyone as they went past.

Here in Melbourne never seen them doing that

Cops on pushbikes hang around some major intersections doing the same thing above in Melbourne.

[Yellow_Festiva]

Further to the above, I recall something along the lines of being 'parked' as having the keys removed from the ignition.

Could be an urban myth as it seems to not be mentioned anywhere but what do those with smart key fobs do in that case?

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by Yellow_Festiva

Further to the above, I recall something along the lines of being 'parked' as having the keys removed from the ignition.

Could be an urban myth as it seems to not be mentioned anywhere but what do those with smart key fobs do in that case?

Yes, I've read that too.

I discussed this with a work colleague who searched the net and sent me an extract from a website which claimed as much...only problem was it was a British site called sell your car to Jack or something which has zero relevance to SA law.
The only thing I've read which related to an incident in SA was where someone's friend got pinged in a Kmart carpark.

[Vesper Martini]

A few years back in Melbourne they had a blitz on window tinting. Police were on foot doing this at busy city intersections. I recall because My car at the time had slightly darker than legal tint so I avoided the city..

VICPOL like a good Blitz, catching people out for things like the wrong colour shackle on your trailer chain etc.
nothing like catching people unaware, fines on these major offences can be 2-3 hundred

[Citroënbender]

As I drive with my doors locked, when I park to handle the phone I put the car keys where they’re visible on top of the dash. It’s unnecessary IMO but cuts out the jobsworths and do-gooders from being an issue.

Why aren’t stop signs enforced consistently? I was in a messy smash years ago caused by someone who had no regard for such - and then lacked the courage to stick around and own their efforts. Surely it would be straightforward enough to make mobile enforcement tech for these?

[Tonz]

Originally Posted by Citroënbender

Why aren’t stop signs enforced consistently? I was in a messy smash years ago caused by someone who had no regard for such - and then lacked the courage to stick around and own their efforts. Surely it would be straightforward enough to make mobile enforcement tech for these?

this is why we have mobile phones, can can be held and take photos where dash cams cant

[jinksie]

link for mobile phone use
https://roadsafety.transport.nsw.gov...the-rules.html

[.:4:.]

Originally Posted by Citroënbender

As I drive with my doors locked, when I park to handle the phone I put the car keys where they’re visible on top of the dash. It’s unnecessary IMO but cuts out the jobsworths and do-gooders from being an issue.

Why aren’t stop signs enforced consistently? I was in a messy smash years ago caused by someone who had no regard for such - and then lacked the courage to stick around and own their efforts. Surely it would be straightforward enough to make mobile enforcement tech for these?

I actually received a fine because my brother didnt come to a full stop in my car at the end of his street, he just treated as a give way. So i guess it is enforced on slow news days. It is a 0 demerit fine so i didnt go stat dec on it but made him pay.
My ex mrs got done for phone use a while back. All i heard was excuses, but a bike cop was lane filtering and got her on helmet cam so no excuse. She was late paying the fine and lost her licence for 2 weeks because of that.
For work i have to be contactable. But i made sure i spent a bit extra on a really nice dash mount thats magnetic to cover my rear. Im in a rental car at the moment but i made sure to bring my mount as obviouly rentals dont come with phone mounts and i spend a lot of time on the road relying on google maps for directions, so i need all bases covered as i need my licence for work. My personal car i do not mount my phone, but it hasnt got bluetooth so if im driving i dont want to talk to anybody. So it stays in my pocket. If its machine gun calls or texts ill pull over and drop the keys on the floor..

[b0son]

Originally Posted by deesun

13 serious accidents that probably wouldn't have happened if they weren't on their phones. 26 cars seriously damaged

unless any were single vehicle accidents

if they were genuinely concerned about safety, they would attend fender benders and they would hand out fines for negligent driving. that likely would have an effect on driving standards.

similarly, they would require elderly drivers to demonstrate competence. per km travelled, our oldest drivers are as dangerous as the youngest. but the big difference is that young drivers have predominantly single vehicle accidents, elderly drivers tend to hit others. on that basis alone, they warrant more police attention.

instead, police roll out tech to target behaviour lots of drivers partake in, without necessarily doing much for road safety. sounds familiar...

[GCRXR6]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

I don't have a problem with pinging people who are using their phones whilst driving or at lights/intersections etc. but what I have a problem with is the ambiguous rules, especially here in SA with regard to using them when 'parked' and the 'official' interpretation of that term.

In SA we are allowed to use a mobile device to make and receive a call when parked, the rule makes no mention of whether the engine can be running or not, only that 'parked' can not be at lights or queued in traffic.
I've had some people say must be switched off, some say all good to be running, the problem is the rule doesn't actually specify.

I had an incident last week with regard to this exact situation, had just left the school where the bus had sat without the engine running for around 20 minutes in 25* weather, it doesn't take long for the inside to reach much higher and so I always turn the AC on when we get under way.
Soon after leaving the school one of my new students gets up and starts wondering around the bus, I caution them but unfortunately being new Australians they don't quite understand the rules or what im saying necessarily, so my only option is to contact the school co-ordinator and notify them of the situation, this can take quite a while as they aren't always readily on hand to take a call, I have a direct line but if I was to go by the proper procedure it involves a call to the contractor, who then contacts the school, who then contacts the co-ordinator, who then contacts me, it can take 10 minutes minimum.

Obviously I cant do this whilst driving and as my first drop off was only a few hundred meters up the road I arrived there, put the bus in park as its an auto, applied the handbrake and switched on the hazard lights, I left the engine running with the AC on as it was still very warm, these AC units take a while to cool the bus.

I opened the bus door and let the 2 students, who's house i'd arrived at, out.
Now as far as im concerned I've done the right thing, waited until I stopped and parked the bus.
I reached for my phone and only just picked it up when some guy riding past on his push bike, on the footpath with no helmet might I add, stopped and started going off his head because in his mind, having the engine running, im driving whilst on the phone.
So I tried to explain the situation but he wasn't having a bar of it, threatened to call my employer etc. etc.
So when I got home I searched up the road rules, this is the rule as written for SA...

AUSTRALIAN ROAD RULES - REG 300
300—Use of mobile phones
(1) The driver of a vehicle must not use a mobile phone while the vehicle is moving, or is stationary but not parked, unless—
(a) the phone is being used to make or receive an audio phone call and the body of the phone—
(i) is secured in a mounting affixed to the vehicle while being so used; or
(ii) is not secured in a mounting affixed to the vehicle and is not being held by the driver, and the use of the phone does not require the driver, at any time while using it, to press any thing on the body of the phone or to otherwise manipulate any part of the body of the phone; or
(ab) the phone is being used as a driver's aid and—
(i) the body of the phone is secured in a mounting affixed to the vehicle while being so used; and
(ii) the use of the phone does not require the driver, at any time while using it, to press any thing on the body of the phone or otherwise to manipulate any part of the body of the phone; or
(b) the vehicle is an emergency vehicle or a police vehicle; or
(c) the driver is exempt from this rule under another law of this jurisdiction.
Offence provision.
Note—
"Emergency vehicle", "park" and "police vehicle are defined in the dictionary.

SA NOTE—
For South Australia, in addition to this rule, see regulation 44 of the Road Traffic (Road Rules—Ancillary and Miscellaneous Provisions) Regulations 2014

And this from the SA Government DPTI website..

You must not use a hand-held mobile phone while your vehicle is moving or is stationary in traffic (for example, at traffic lights). You may, however, use a hand-held mobile phone while your vehicle is parked.
If a person wishes to make or receive a call, including dialling a number and needs to touch any part of the phone to do so, that phone must be mounted (in a mounting commercially designed and manufactured for that purpose).
If the phone is being used via blue tooth, a headset or earphones without touching, holding or resting the phone on their body, the driver may touch the earpiece or headphone to operate the phone (the phone may be located anywhere in the vehicle, including the driver's pocket or pouch they are wearing).
It is an offence to create, send or look at a text, video message or email on a mobile phone.
It is an offence to make or receive a video call on a mobile phone whilst your vehicle is moving.
Drivers of police or emergency vehicles are exempt.

Now I understand why some people would consider having your engine running as not 'parked' but if I we're to pull up in my car in a zone marked with a NO PARKING sign and left my engine running for half an hour, am I parked?

Thoughts..

I believe that "Parked" means engine off, trany in gear and parking brake applied.
If you have the engine running, you are "Standing"

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

In my travels around Adelaide I've noticed they had cops in foot in the CBD looking into people's cars at intersections and cops on motorbikes checking everyone as they went past.

Here in Melbourne never seen them doing that

Think you should visit CBD and suburbs more often, seen plenty of them on foot & pushbikes, even the odd trail bike cops snooping around booking motorists.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by GCRXR6

I believe that "Parked" means engine off, trany in gear and parking brake applied.
If you have the engine running, you are "Standing"

Agreed, the problem is that 'Parked' can be applied differently to different situations.
If you look at the link in Jinksie's post above it clearly states under point 5 of the unrestricted licence heading, that 'parked' means out of the line of traffic and can have the ignition on whilst using a mobile device.
So their interpretation in that instance is that having your ignition on is still considered 'parked', yet having it on in a No Parking zone is considered 'Standing'.

Then there's this from the SA Gov DPTI website with regards to 'parking'...

'Parking is when you stop and allow your vehicle to stay in one place, whether or not you leave the vehicle unattended.

Again, no mention of ignition position.

These things could easily be cleared up with a few additional words in the written rule.

[Burnout]

[lra]

BENT 8, not a criticism, but your employer rules can be more stringent and explicit than State rules.
As a NSW ex- bus driver, or rules were..
No incoming calls to be taken.
If you had to make call, park the bus safely, neutral, park brake on, engine stopped, get out of driver's seat and make call while standing on the front step.
Failure to comply = instant dismissal, and there were dismissals which the Union backed up, no running to the Union rep with tears and sad stories.
But personally, I can't see the difference between that, and using our 2 way radio, which was allowable.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by lra

BENT 8, not a criticism, but your employer rules can be more stringent and explicit than State rules.
As a NSW ex- bus driver, or rules were..
No incoming calls to be taken.
If you had to make call, park the bus safely, neutral, park brake on, engine stopped, get out of driver's seat and make call while standing on the front step.
Failure to comply = instant dismissal, and there were dismissals which the Union backed up, no running to the Union rep with tears and sad stories.
But personally, I can't see the difference between that, and using our 2 way radio, which was allowable.

My Employer has no separate policy other than to abide by road rules applicable, in fact I regularly see senior staff on their mobile whilst parked waiting for clients and as you would know if you drove buses, its often better to leave the engine running on short waits than switch them on and off.
For me to shut my bus down I need to idle it for a couple of minutes for the turbo to cool.
The rules governing the contract stipulate that no one can board or alight the bus whilst the engine is running, could you imagine pulling up to pick up or drop off passengers and having to idle the bus for a couple of minutes to cool the turbo before you open the door, X that by the 10 stops im required to do in a 40 minute period, it doesn't happen because its a ridiculous notion and unpractical.

Our SA Police Commissioner was on the radio this morning discussing the new camera's in NSW amongst other things, after the Commissioner explained that the SA Government would be monitoring how it works in NSW before committing to them here the host, Mark Soderstrom, asked him about driving whilst drinking a coffee.
Now, recently we've seen people being pinged for failing to have control of their vehicle because they we're seen consuming drinks whilst driving, guess what the Commissioners response was...
Yes you can drink a coffee whilst driving but it cant be a distraction.
Question is, who decides if its a distraction...that's the grey area and leaves the driver at the mercy of the particular officer.

Personally I believe they leave the grey area in the rules because it gives them the ability to pick and choose how and when they apply them.

[Citroënbender]

I have a good friend who is daft enough to handle his phone often whilst driving. When the inevitable ping occurred, Monsieur Plod gifted him a fine for unsecured load (“loose dangerous items in the cabin”) instead of a phone penalty.

The silly bugger still moaned about it! It’s people like he, who will be caught by the new tech.

[creative]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

.....
Personally I believe they leave the grey area in the rules because it gives them the ability to pick and choose how and when they apply them.

This. The rules are ambiguous for a reason. The general public reads it one way, authority the other.

As you say previously, a few more words inserted into a rule can clear everything up but they wont do that because it takes away the authorities power to interpret it their way. ( I have dealt with this in a rental capacity and dealing with tribunal )

This is also a question I have seen with the new digital drivers licenses and again the ambiguity behind mobile phone use and when you are considered parked etc.

[guzzis3]

Originally Posted by Bevsta007

VICPOL like a good Blitz, catching people out for things like the wrong colour shackle on your trailer chain etc.

Wait! WTF ??? You have colour coded shackles in victoria ? FFS...

[lra]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

For me to shut my bus down I need to idle it for a couple of minutes for the turbo to cool. The rules governing the contract stipulate that no one can board or alight the bus whilst the engine is running, ……………………….

I didn't have a turbo, just a dirty big Merc 6 cyl atmo.
No passengers on or off with engine running ......WTF …. never heard of that. What know-nothing desk driver would have thought of that one.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by lra

I didn't have a turbo, just a dirty big Merc 6 cyl atmo.
No passengers on or off with engine running ......WTF …. never heard of that. What know-nothing desk driver would have thought of that one.

I know, but them's the rules, I tried it on my first day thinking I was doing the right thing by obeying the rules, but within a few stops the smell coming out of it stopped that practice, haven't smelt it since, so it wasn't happy.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by creative

This. The rules are ambiguous for a reason. The general public reads it one way, authority the other.

As you say previously, a few more words inserted into a rule can clear everything up but they wont do that because it takes away the authorities power to interpret it their way. ( I have dealt with this in a rental capacity and dealing with tribunal )

Agreed, and I get the old 'attitude test' which many officers apply when deciding how they interpret a possible wrong doing, but in my situation it wasn't a person of authority ranting at the bus door, it was a do gooder from the general populace who obviously hadn't read the way the rule is written or interpreted it differently to me and whilst its ok to say that's his prerogative as he isn't necessarily wrong either, having some random dude standing at the bus door ranting and raving with a bus full of young, recently arrived children, many of whom have come from very different backgrounds and therefore have trust issues, is probably causing more of a safety issue than me reaching for my mobile phone.
But I doubt vigilantism was at the forefront of thinking when they decided that ambiguous written rules we're a great idea.

[GT0132]

Couldn't come soon enough. Driving while texting is worse than DUI…At least if you're ****ed you are still watching the road albeit through a fog , unless of course you're using your phone as well

If the government make revenue out of it. I'm OK with that…bring it on

So many times I've been close to being side swiped by some idiot looking down on their lap

[b0son]

Originally Posted by GT0132

Driving while texting is worse than DUI

That isn't saying much. DUI below 0.08 is fairly harmless (crash rates don't start going up until you reach this point), yet how many fines are handed out for 0.05-0.08 infringements?

This is the problem across the board. Safety initiatives that make relatively safe activity (eg. exceeding speed limits by 5-10kph) the focus of 90-95% of enforcement activity. The focus is money, any safety improvement is purely incidental.