Ford strike back with police cars

[Chilliman]

Originally Posted by Falc'man

GM need drivel.com.au to do some cheer-leading over there.

Cheer-leading you say...all the baton twirling and cart-wheels in world aren't going to improve the Caprice PPV's sales!

[MethodX]

Originally Posted by Falc'man

GM need drivel.com.au to do some cheer-leading over there.

Well whos gonna cheer lead that Taurus monstrosity?
Fwd for the win !!! not.

[Chilliman]

Originally Posted by MethodX

Well whos gonna cheer lead that Taurus monstrosity?
Fwd for the win !!! not.

FWD is a whole lot of win for Police Depts in the snow covered states - besides the standard Taurus PPV is AWD (FWD is optional)...but we'll see how it all stacks up once it actually goes on sale.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Windsor220

So when exactly does the old Crown Vic run out and the new Taurus come into play?

There's been a huge pull forward of sales as polie departments renewed their CV fleets,
The 2012 PI and PI ute go on sale early next year...I thing as there is still a bit of Crown Victoria inventory left.

Interesting that Ford engineered taurus based PI to accept previous Crown Vic police equipment so guess what?
A lot of PDs can order new Ford vehicles and transfer their existing police equipment over,
that gives Ford a huge advantage over Charger or Caprice PPV....

[MethodX]

Originally Posted by Chilliman

FWD is a whole lot of win for Police Depts in the snow covered states - besides the standard Taurus PPV is AWD (FWD is optional)...but we'll see how it all stacks up once it actually goes on sale.

Which means the awd Taurus costs more to run and maintain.
The Caprice is Aussie i thought, shouldnt you be supporting that?

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by MethodX

Which means the awd Taurus costs more to run and maintain.

Surprisingly not, the fuel consumption is actually similar to V6 Caprice and
the parts interchangeability with Explorer based PI Ute gives a killer 1-2 punch.

The Caprice is Aussie i thought, shouldnt you be supporting that?

Caprice PPV was always a bad idea with an unrealistic business plan,
it was set up with the express intent of saving local caprice production.

[XRDeeze]

the ol holden v Ford strikes again...admitedly id pick the big v8 over the turbo , its even a better looking cop car imo.

[Chilliman]

Originally Posted by MethodX

Which means the awd Taurus costs more to run and maintain.
The Caprice is Aussie i thought, shouldnt you be supporting that?

On the first point - what jpd80 said

On the second - yeah lets support a loss making venture for the sake of national pride

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Interesting that Ford engineered taurus based PI to accept previous Crown Vic police equipment so guess what?
A lot of PDs can order new Ford vehicles and transfer their existing police equipment over,
that gives Ford a huge advantage over Charger or Caprice PPV....

The Caprice can also accept all of Crown Victorias equipment as is, only one bracket has to be slightly bent.

The Taurus is heavy, cramped, slower than Caprice, and brakes worse than a Caprice. Its AWD twin turbo set up will be inherently more expensive and difficult to maintain over the Caprice V8 RWD setup as shared with the Tahoe PPV - many police cars run to 100,000 miles.

The Taurus is just a gussied up rental car special, the only thing it has going is its price which is a significant consideration for police departments. A FWD V6 should sell well but thats more a Impala competitor than the Caprice.

Once they stop selling 3000-5000 Crown Vics a month, some will go to Caprice, some will go to Charger and some go to Taurus.

[Gobes32]

Originally Posted by Brazen

The Taurus is just a gussied up rental car special, the only thing it has going is its price which is a significant consideration for police departments. A FWD V6 should sell well but thats more a Impala competitor than the Caprice.

Once they stop selling 3000-5000 Crown Vics a month, some will go to Caprice, some will go to Charger and some go to Taurus.

You are forgetting the "made in America" mentality.

I was really hoping Holden would kick a goal with this, but then they tried to pull off a huge publicity stunt and basically told a bunch of porkies, then I starting hoping it would fail, because that is what liars deserve.

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by Gobes32

You are forgetting the "made in America" mentality.

I was really hoping Holden would kick a goal with this, but then they tried to pull off a huge publicity stunt and basically told a bunch of porkies, then I starting hoping it would fail, because that is what liars deserve.

Crown Vic is made in Canada, Tahoe is made in Mexico, Charger is made in Canada.

Americans consider a car's origin based on its badge - An Australian Chevy will be considered a 'domestic' whilst US built cars like Camry and Accord are called 'imports'. In the end, money talks if a car is cheap enough it will do well.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Brazen

The Caprice can also accept all of Crown Victorias equipment as is, only one bracket has to be slightly bent.

Wrong,
you have to buy the new electronics package that comes with caprice.

The Taurus is heavy, cramped, slower than Caprice, and brakes worse than a Caprice. Its AWD twin turbo set up will be inherently more expensive and difficult to maintain over the Caprice V8 RWD setup as shared with the Tahoe PPV - many police cars run to 100,000 miles.

Wrong,
EB Taurus is roughly $4,000 cheaper than Caprice, it has AWD as standard for better chase performance in all weather conditions.
Taurus also has way more parts in common with Explorer based PI Ute which is attractive to major police departments.

The Taurus is just a gussied up rental car special, the only thing it has going is its price which is a significant consideration for police departments. A FWD V6 should sell well but thats more a Impala competitor than the Caprice.

Caprice is just a dumbed down luxury car with Omega trim, it is old school and has nothing going for it.

Once they stop selling 3000-5000 Crown Vics a month, some will go to Caprice, some will go to Charger and some go to Taurus.

That's the plan except,
A lot will go to Ford, a lot will go to Dodge, quite a few to new Impala, Tahoe and just a few to Caprice..
Holden did not think this through, "if you build it, they will come" is not a valid business plan.


See, the Caprice plan has been on the books since 2006 or there abouts but had no business case.
Then Holden revived it fearing that falling sales of Caprice/Statesman meant the end of
production in Australia - that should not be the basis for validating an export business plan...

[Chilliman]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Holden did not think this through, "if you build it, they will come" is not a valid business plan.


See, the Caprice plan has been on the books since 2006 or there abouts but had no business case.
Then Holden revived it fearing that falling sales of Caprice/Statesman meant the end of
production in Australia - that should not be the basis for validating an export business plan...

Yes the business case and indeed the marketing of the Ford Police Interceptor has been in total cotrast to the way GM have handled things:

• Ford consulted directly with major police depts, like the LAPD, to discuss their requirements and have tailored their product to suit

• Rather than court the automotive media and get positively spun articles published every 15minutes, Fords marketing efforts have been directed directly to the customer - the Police Interceptor and Utility have been handled no differently to any other fleet vehicle using Ford's direct relationships with Police departments that have been built up over decades of supplying police forces accross the USA

• The business case has been built on economies of scale - being able to run all the cars down the Chicago production line where the regular Taurus and Explorer are assembled with minimal disruption as opposed to sourcing product from what is a small niche manaufacturer (in global terms) half-way accross the world

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Chilliman

The business case has been built on economies of scale - being able to run all the cars down the Chicago production line where the regular Taurus and Explorer are assembled with minimal disruption as opposed to sourcing product from what is a small niche manaufacturer (in global terms) half-way accross the world[/LIST]

Exactly.
Ford NA is making money by eliminating an old platforms and consolidating continuing vehicles
on existing FWD/AWD platforms, this doubles the bang for bucks by increasing continuing
products and eliminating what then becomes duplication and excess capacity.


Good luck to Caprice but honestly, I wouldn't get my hopes up about massive sales and even though
the Aussie dollar is now weakening, it's still way too strong to be exporting into cut throat markets like police cars.

[FPV GTHO]

Originally Posted by jpd80

See, the Caprice plan has been on the books since 2006 or there abouts but had no business case.
Then Holden revived it fearing that falling sales of Caprice/Statesman meant the end of
production in Australia - that should not be the basis for validating an export business plan...

Holdens whole business case for VE has fallen apart, why not Caprice PPV as well.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by FPV GTHO

Holdens whole business case for VE has fallen apart, why not Caprice PPV as well.

Every year form 2005 to present, Holden has outsold Ford Australia, had far more exports
to middle east, South America and to the USA, they sold heaps of them but guess what?
2005 to 2009 were all losses and then a big loss when Pontiac GTO was cancelled early on them.
Holden have now spent $200 million on getting another export car to the US, the Caprice PPV,
roughly the same money Ford spent on SZ territory and FG II updates (less govt engine funding)

Now, had Holden used a fraction of those funds to develop a domestic 3.0 V6 diesel Commodore,
I think they would have had a huge success......they're not looking in the right direction.
With the right cars and engines, Australia can be very profitable, Ford knows this and Holden
is learning it with Cruze local production, that car will bring more stability than Caprice PPV exports..

[FPV GTHO]

I dont know where theyve gone wrong exactly but i would say theyve lacked some foresight. Maybe thats at the fault of people like Bob Lutz who wont go away.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by FPV GTHO

I dont know where theyve gone wrong exactly but i would say theyve lacked some foresight. Maybe thats at the fault of people like Bob Lutz who wont go away.

I don't blame Holden......

They had a brilliant plan at the start of 2002 to develop a global platform and
left to their own devices would have produced an absolute winner around the world
but fate intervened several times, increases in CAFE regs, economic slow down,
gM's financial woes and generally lots of indecisiveness on the part of GMNA left
Holden holding the bag on several occasions. Even now Caprice looks a real worry..

Ford's decision to keep Falcon domestic ended up being the right one but paid the price
of looking like they didn't care when in fact, they were safe guarding Falcon and preserving
their right to continue development by keeping enough funding for what was important.

Never has there been two extremes of business plans like our local manufacturers,
are they right or wrong, are exports good for business or are they of no consequence?

You be the judge....

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by Chilliman

Yes the business case and indeed the marketing of the Ford Police Interceptor has been in total cotrast to the way GM have handled things:

• Ford consulted directly with major police depts, like the LAPD, to discuss their requirements and have tailored their product to suit

• Rather than court the automotive media and get positively spun articles published every 15minutes, Fords marketing efforts have been directed directly to the customer - the Police Interceptor and Utility have been handled no differently to any other fleet vehicle using Ford's direct relationships with Police departments that have been built up over decades of supplying police forces accross the USA

That business of continually supplying police cars for years must be worth its weight in gold. I'm suprised that Ford didnt overlap Crown Vic and Taurus Interceptor for 6 or so months, that way they could of slotted each buyer into a new Taurus police car.

Crown Vic has been around for years its very odd that they just didnt continue it till the Taurus was ready (or bring Forward the Taurus Interceptor). Was there any reason for this?

Now as the article shows Police are now forced to look at competitors until the new Ford is ready I guess its good news for GM and Chrysler otherwise I doubt they would of even get a shoe-in.

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/co...html?sort=desc

Police in the market for new cars for marked cruisers
By Jerome Burdi

Sun Sentinel

Posted: 12:21 p.m. Friday, Oct. 7, 2011



Be on the lookout. That cop car in your rearview mirror might be a surprise, because it may not look like the familiar Ford Crown Victoria that police have driven for decades.


The last Crown Victoria rolled off its Canadian assembly line Sept. 15, and now police in South Florida, and across the country, are looking for something to replace their old standby.


"[Police] don't enjoy change all the time," said Boca Raton Assistant Police Chief Edgar Morley. We're accustomed to the Crown Victoria, we know how they drive and we can anticipate how to operate them. We're going to have to try on a new pair of shoes and get used to them."


Cops and taxi companies still were buying the cars, but other sales were slow and the model no longer was profitable, Ford spokesman Octavio Navarro said.


"It was a large car, so police officers could easily fit in the vehicle with all their equipment on," he said. "Everybody knew how it handled. The vehicle delivered the same driving time after time. It's like your favorite pair of old tennis shoes. You like it. It fits your foot."


The current model was developed in 1992 and about 1.8 million were sold, he said. Local numbers were unavailable.


Police departments now are awaiting the release of Ford's Police Interceptor, a new car made specifically for police use that should be available next year.


"Police Interceptors will deliver at least 20 percent better fuel economy than the current Crown Victoria," a media release said.


But in the meantime, South Florida police officers will have to adapt to new wheels. The main options are the Dodge Charger and the Chevrolet Caprice and Impala.


Look for them on a highway near you.


"It's been a very reliable car for a long time running, and has met the need of law enforcement that entire time," said Broward Sheriff's Office spokeswoman Keyla Concepcion. "A downfall with the Crown Victoria is that the vehicle has not received any major updates or advancements in quite some time."


BSO owns 1,146 Crown Victorias; Fort Lauderdale police has 297; Boca Raton police has about 100; Delray Beach police owns 115; and Boynton Beach police owns 55.


The Crown Victoria was criticized last year by a group of Florida legislators over concerns that the vehicle burst into flames when struck from behind at high speeds.


State troopers were killed in Crown Victoria fires when their cars were hit from behind or involved in crashes in 1997, 1998 and 2010. A Hollywood traffic-enforcement officer was killed in a fiery Crown Victoria wreck in 2008.


Ford officials said the vehicle was safe.


The change to new police cruisers won't come easy.


"I don't think our Police Department is comfortable with the Charger," said Kevin Rumell, fleet maintenance superintendent for Delray Beach police. "They are a little smaller with the seating room. [Police officers] really prefer the Crown Victoria because it was so roomy."


Delray Beach police stockpiled an extra six Crown Victorias before they became extinct.


While the interior space is one concern cops have, they're also studying the handling of some alternative cars and whether front-wheel, all-wheel or rear-wheel drive is best. The Crown Victoria is rear-wheel drive, and some departments say that with front-wheel drive cars, such as in the Impala, officers could lose control during a chase.


"Rear-wheel drive has been considered more stable, better handling and accelerates better," Rumell said.


It looks like the best buy will be a car that's fuel efficient with an upgraded engine, suspension, brake system and interior, said Steve Weiser, fleet administrator for Boynton Beach police.


Boynton Beach police started testing Impalas in 2008 after hearing about the Crown Victoria's demise. The department's 50 fuel-efficient Impalas saved up to $200,000 in gas last year, Weiser said.


"As far as I'm concerned, the Impalas are performing excellent," he said. Police cars are "severe-duty vehicles, it's the nature of the beast. We need a vehicle to perform for that."


Staff researcher Barbara Hijek contributed to this report

[Sprint XR8]

November 2011 U.S. sales

• Caprice: After much fanfare over the past year or so, the Australian-built Chevrolet Caprice is merely coasting in the slow lane. The dedicated cop car, at least here in the United States, last month posted just 167 sales. Sales this year? 781.

• General Motors expected the Caprice to be a popular rear-drive alternative to the Dodge Charger and Ford Crown Victoria.

http://www.autonews.com/article/2011...111209977/1448

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by CoupeXB

November 2011 U.S. sales



http://www.autonews.com/article/2011...111209977/1448

Holden's goose is cooked again, it's only a matter of time until they pull the plug...

LOL,
Taurus and Explorer based interceptors haven't even arrived yet but the
out of production Crown Victoria still managed over 1,000 sales from inventory..

[Road_Warrior]

LOL

Even so, it would be good to see an Australian made product beating Yank offerings on their own turf.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

LOL

Even so, it would be good to see an Australian made product beating Yank offerings on their own turf.

But then that would be the same as Americans hoping that Impala and Taurus
would beat our Commodore and Falcon at cut price government fleet sales....

Not happening any time soon....

This is exactly why Ford based their next gen police vehicles off the Taurus and Explorer,
they're both basically SUVs except one has a sedan body so they should be strong.

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by jpd80

But then that would be the same as Americans hoping that Impala and Taurus
would beat our Commodore and Falcon at cut price government fleet sales....

Not happening any time soon....

This is exactly why Ford based their next gen police vehicles off the Taurus and Explorer,
they're both basically SUVs except one has a sedan body so they should be strong.

I guess I laugh because of the way Holden/GM were making a big deal about their "massive" Caprice PPV export potential and were blowing their trumpet at anyone who was prepared to listen, and it has all fallen flat on its face.

But I'd like to see it do well, because it's a product of our local car manufacturing industry being sent to take on the home of high speed pursuits. Our local car manufacturing industry is important, to me and many other Australians. And I have a soft spot for the WM Caprice.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

I guess I laugh because of the way Holden/GM were making a big deal about their "massive" Caprice PPV export potential and were blowing their trumpet at anyone who was prepared to listen, and it has all fallen flat on its face.

But I'd like to see it do well, because it's a product of our local car manufacturing industry being sent to take on the home of high speed pursuits. Our local car manufacturing industry is important, to me and many other Australians. And I have a soft spot for the WM Caprice.

I like the Caprice but not as an Omega trimmed police squad car, if GM had balls they would
have imported the luxury versions as Chevrolet Caprice and Buick Riveria and asked proper money
but even that business case is risky because GMNA could do Caprice themselves down the Camaro line..

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by jpd80

I like the Caprice but not as an Omega trimmed police squad car, if GM had balls they would
have imported the luxury versions as Chevrolet Caprice and Buick Riveria and asked proper money
but even that business case is risky because GMNA could do Caprice themselves down the Camaro line..

I agree. The interior of the Caprice PPV is horrid. I'm a bit of a pervert for povvo packs but...jeez, even I aint touchin that. It's worse than the Omega IMO, much worse.

They could have offered it as a Buick Riviera in North America, with a hybrid interior fitout of half HSV Grange and some items from the Shanghai-made Buick (like the massaging back seats). But yeah, it would be threatened by fickle exchange rates and the cold hard fact that GM could make it cheaper in their own backyard.

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by jpd80

I like the Caprice but not as an Omega trimmed police squad car, if GM had balls they would
have imported the luxury versions as Chevrolet Caprice and Buick Riveria and asked proper money
but even that business case is risky because GMNA could do Caprice themselves down the Camaro line..

The problem is its too old to be a luxury car in the US. It first came out in 2006 and times have passed it on for that segment in the US especially feature content, its also a bit conservative looking and the design language at the rear is much more Chevy than Buick. I dont think it would sell overly well as a luxury car over there, they may have more luck with the next generation.

[1TUFFUTE]

in a way id wished it had worked enough to be at least viable for them....i know if it was a imported ford failing that bad id be embaressed as hell

[Bossxr8]

Holden would probably be glad they aren't selling many, because with the exchange rate being where it is they would probably be losing money on everyone they sell.

How's Gover going to spin this one. Headline could read "Caprice PPV vehicles sales increase a massive 15%".

Just don't mention the increase was from 140 to 167 lol.

[HSVKILLA]

http://www.caradvice.com.au/157288/h...export-demand/