Twilight for the traditional ICE automobile - Page 12

zilo · 27-06-2021, 12:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kmav23

https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2021/04/b...car-australia/

Australia’s Finally Going To Get An Electric Car That’ll Apparently Cost Well Below $35K

Love the idea of electric cars but also love the idea of being able to afford to eat dinner? Well, you’re in luck because a Sydney-based company reckons it will soon launch an EV that is well below the $44,000 minimum it’ll set you back currently.

According to the Australian Financial Review, a new VW Golf-sized hatchback by BYD is set to be imported by TrueGreen Mobility as early as next year, with CEO Luke Todd confirming that it will be priced “well and truly sub-$35,000.”
.

yep....BYD is a car company that also manufactures it's own batteries.

Their batteries are state of the art and half the price of tesla batteries.

That is where the biggest cost saving is with BYD vehicles.

Our home has 105 kwh of BYD Lithium batteries (for under $48k.)

Try doing that with Tesla Powerwalls.

Franco Cozzo · 27-06-2021, 12:35 AM

Do electric cars use resistive heating for HVAC functionality? Or do they use reverse cycle/heat pump given it has an AC compressor?

Surely it would make much more sense to use a more efficient method to heat the inside of the car like a reverse cycle HVAC system rather than resistive heating given we're taking energy in an inefficient method from whats turning the wheels.

Well, technically resistive heating is very efficient method at heating but its very energy intensive method of creating heat - counter productive in the case of an electric car.

**kypez** · 27-06-2021, 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Do electric cars use resistive heating for HVAC functionality? Or do they use reverse cycle/heat pump given it has an AC compressor?

Surely it would make much more sense to use a more efficient method to heat the inside of the car like a reverse cycle HVAC system rather than resistive heating given we're taking energy in an inefficient method from whats turning the wheels.

Well, technically resistive heating is very efficient method at heating but its very energy intensive method of creating heat - counter productive in the case of an electric car.

All the Tesla's have moved to heat pumps now.

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**kypez** · 01-07-2021, 11:44 AM

Wow! $1.989 for 98 near where I live! RIP ICE!

That said, I pick up my Mach 1 today. I'll only be using that sparingly and on track. $30 per 100 kms vs $1.10 on the EV. I know what I'll be driving more!

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**FTE217** · 01-07-2021, 11:53 AM

Mach1, just no question for me.
So you kept going through with it, can't help yourself kypez, congrats thankfully its ICE.

**kypez** · 01-07-2021, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FTE217

Mach1, just no question for me.
So you kept going through with it, can't help yourself kypez, congrats thankfully its ICE.

I've got problems but my XR8 is getting old. I think it's time for a new platform.

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**mad2** · 01-07-2021, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kypez

Wow! $1.989 for 98 near where I live! RIP ICE!

That said, I pick up my Mach 1 today. I'll only be using that sparingly and on track. $30 per 100 kms vs $1.10 on the EV. I know what I'll be driving more!

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59.9 for me

which still works out dearer at $27.37 with petroleum at approx 135.00

**GasoLane** · 01-07-2021, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kypez

I've got problems but my XR8 is getting old. I think it's time for a new platform.

G Wagon

Crazy Dazz · 01-07-2021, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Do electric cars use resistive heating for HVAC functionality? Or do they use reverse cycle/heat pump given it has an AC compressor?

Owners of Electric Cars don't need heaters, they produce enough hot air on their own.

**kypez** · 01-07-2021, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

Owners of Electric Cars don't need heaters, they produce enough hot air on their own.

Don't be green...

**kypez** · 01-07-2021, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GasoLane

G Wagon

Automatic. I loathe Automatics!

kevino · 01-07-2021, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kypez

Automatic. I loathe Automatics!

Your Everest is auto is it not?

**kypez** · 01-07-2021, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kevino

Your Everest is auto is it not?

Long gone. Hated it. Can't update my signature cause I keep getting an error. Replaced with a manual Mach 1.

Bought it to tow. And unfortunately, had no other option. Couldn't be bothered towing anymore.

[signature changed, let me know if this is a problem]

Wretched · 15-07-2021, 02:43 PM

I'm a big fan of Harry's videos. This one was interesting but I did take it with a grain of salt, it looked very PRish but was still very interesting. The heavy vehicle industry is different to the consumer one and have different requirements.

**kypez** · 16-07-2021, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wretched

I'm a big fan of Harry's videos. This one was interesting but I did take it with a grain of salt, it looked very PRish but was still very interesting. The heavy vehicle industry is different to the consumer one and have different requirements.

I agree that Hydrogen makes a lot of sense for heavy vehicles. Don't need the extra weight of batteries taking away from payload capacity. There is a use case for smaller battery trucks but the bigger ones, with the right size tanks, can setup dedicated fueling points to cover the distance from point to point.

Franco Cozzo · 17-07-2021, 05:16 PM

The problem I see with EV's at the moment is basically the Nissan Leaf

Its some tiny effeminate econobox platform thats had the internal combustion engine taken out of it, electric motors and batteries put in and that costs $60K+ ORC.

https://www.carsales.com.au/editoria...review-130343/

$60K buys you a nice traditional car,

Then there's Tesla which is nice but its on the upper end of the market, which again buys you very nice traditional cars in comparison to the buy price on a Model 3.

I think that the layman's EV is a long time off from the traditional auto manufacturers - I reckon that Chinese companies will lead the layman's EV push as its being ignored by all the others as an expensive niche market product with limited market opportunity, they'll beat everyone there in the sub $40K bracket and the rest will drag their heels and come to the party late when they've already conceded huge market share.

b0son · 17-07-2021, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Then there's Tesla which is nice but its on the upper end of the market, which again buys you very nice traditional cars in comparison to the buy price on a Model 3.

They just dropped prices, model 3 is $7k cheaper. I think however, it's because the model 3 is now being sourced from China. Quality was already iffy, but I'd want to see how they do in the market before I bought a Chinese one.

**kypez** · 17-07-2021, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by b0son

They just dropped prices, model 3 is $7k cheaper. I think however, it's because the model 3 is now being sourced from China. Quality was already iffy, but I'd want to see how they do in the market before I bought a Chinese one.

The bloody Chinese built ones are better than the US built ones. Chalk and cheese between the two.

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**kypez** · 17-07-2021, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

The problem I see with EV's at the moment is basically the Nissan Leaf

Its some tiny effeminate econobox platform thats had the internal combustion engine taken out of it, electric motors and batteries put in and that costs $60K+ ORC.

https://www.carsales.com.au/editoria...review-130343/

$60K buys you a nice traditional car,

Then there's Tesla which is nice but its on the upper end of the market, which again buys you very nice traditional cars in comparison to the buy price on a Model 3.

I think that the layman's EV is a long time off from the traditional auto manufacturers - I reckon that Chinese companies will lead the layman's EV push as its being ignored by all the others as an expensive niche market product with limited market opportunity, they'll beat everyone there in the sub $40K bracket and the rest will drag their heels and come to the party late when they've already conceded huge market share.

As b0son said, the model 3 is $59k plus ORC. You'd be mad to buy a Kona or anything else in that space.

Still hope the Mach E turns up. After Ford looked after me with the Mach 1, I'd rather send my business to Ford than Tesla.

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Franco Cozzo · 17-07-2021, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kypez

As b0son said, the model 3 is $59k plus ORC. You'd be mad to buy a Kona or anything else in that space.

Still hope the Mach E turns up. After Ford looked after me with the Mach 1, I'd rather send my business to Ford than Tesla.

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Is that $59K + ORC like when it was supposed to be $35000 USD on launch?

Whats the availability like also, cheapest Tesla on the market on carsales is $57K + government charges

https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/det...19981563/?Cr=0

Its all well and good saying its $59K + ORC but if the wait period is 12 months then it doesn't actually exist.

Lets see what MG comes out with and how quickly you can get your hands on one - they're the real movers and shakers in our market.

**kypez** · 17-07-2021, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Is that $59K + ORC like when it was supposed to be $35000 USD on launch?

Whats the availability like also, cheapest Tesla on the market on carsales is $57K + government charges

https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/det...19981563/?Cr=0

Its all well and good saying its $59K + ORC but if the wait period is 12 months then it doesn't actually exist.

Lets see what MG comes out with and how quickly you can get your hands on one - they're the real movers and shakers in our market.

You can get a car in 1-4 weeks. If you buy what is in stock, you're looking at a couple of days.

NSW, $64,662 drive away as they have fixed price dealer delivery. Cheaper in ACT, VIC and come September, will be about $3k cheaper in NSW as well.

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**FTE217** · 17-07-2021, 07:44 PM

Base models in white only I expect.
Funnily the market in that price bracket want SUV's not 4door hatchs.

**kypez** · 17-07-2021, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FTE217

Base models in white only I expect.
Funnily the market in that price bracket want SUV's not 4door hatchs.

Interestingly, the white paint was an expensive option earlier on.

Wait till Model Y hits the market in a couple of months. That'll be a game changer. Its expected around the $65k + ORC for the SR model.

The Model 3 is a sedan not a hatch. Seems to be selling very well for a 4 door Sedan. Several thousand sold in June. Smashed both SUV's and Sedans in that price bracket. And it seems, at that price point, people prefer Sedans not SUVs.

Medium SUVs over $60,000: Volvo XC60 (470), BMW X3 (459), Audi Q5 (454)
Medium > $60k BMW 3 Series (578) Mercedes-Benz C-Class (536) Lexus IS (135)

Model 3 blew all of these cars away for June and YTD.

b0son · 17-07-2021, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kypez

The bloody Chinese built ones are better than the US built ones.

Serious??? That's scary...

**kypez** · 17-07-2021, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by b0son

Serious??? That's scary...

We have one of both. The MIC Model 3 rivals any Euro car. Its brilliantly put together. Zero defects, no creeks, panel gaps are consistent and paint work is flawless (even the PPF guys said how great the paint is on the MIC cars). Its just amazingly good.

Franco Cozzo · 17-07-2021, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kypez

We have one of both. The MIC Model 3 rivals any Euro car. Its brilliantly put together. Zero defects, no creeks, panel gaps are consistent and paint work is flawless (even the PPF guys said how great the paint is on the MIC cars). Its just amazingly good.

Just because something is made in China doesn't mean its **** - we're talking multinational companies with quality control processes in place.

**kypez** · 17-07-2021, 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Just because something is made in China doesn't mean its **** - we're talking multinational companies with quality control processes in place.

True... but we are talking Tesla here who don't have the best history of build quality. Mine have been good but the MIC cars are even better.

jpd80 · 17-07-2021, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kypez

Interestingly, the white paint was an expensive option earlier on.

Wait till Model Y hits the market in a couple of months. That'll be a game changer. Its expected around the $65k + ORC for the SR model.

The Model 3 is a sedan not a hatch. Seems to be selling very well for a 4 door Sedan. Several thousand sold in June. Smashed both SUV's and Sedans in that price bracket. And it seems, at that price point, people prefer Sedans not SUVs.

Medium SUVs over $60,000: Volvo XC60 (470), BMW X3 (459), Audi Q5 (454)
Medium > $60k BMW 3 Series (578) Mercedes-Benz C-Class (536) Lexus IS (135)

Model 3 blew all of these cars away for June and YTD.

Combined shipping deliveries of Tesla 3 to Australia at the end of June was 6,300,
am I correct in assuming that every one of them is already “sold”?
If Tesla declared its Australian deliveries, it would put a shock through premium brands….
Tesla Y is going to put another big dent in those brands’ sales…….

**kypez** · 17-07-2021, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

Combined shipping deliveries of Tesla 3 to Australia at the end of June was 6,300,
am I correct in assuming that every one of them is already “sold”?
If Tesla declared its Australian deliveries, it would put a shock through premium brands….
Tesla Y is going to put another big dent in those brands’ sales…….

The shipments are arriving more regularly these days with production ramped in China. Those were sold and the next shipment just arrived a little while ago. They're selling very well and the recent price drop is seeing even more orders.

The fact that second hand Teslas can still command a premium (and sometimes exchange hands for more than a new car) suggests demand is still outstripping supply. Model Y will dent 3 sales I'd suggest.

Franco Cozzo · 17-07-2021, 09:23 PM

I hope battery technology improves significantly in the next 10 years or so.

There's some interesting dramas around batteries needing Cobalt - who the 'Democratic' Republic of Congo are the world's major supplier of Cobalt required in lithium ion batteries (much like Australia supplies most of the worlds lithium).

There was a lawsuit filed in the USA in 2019 targeting the major tech companies and Tesla over using slave/child labour from the DRC:

Quote:

Legal Argument

IRAdvocates, a US-based NGO, filed a federal class action lawsuit against Apple, Google, Alphabet, Microsoft, Dell, and Tesla. The lawsuit was filed on behalf of 14 plaintiffs who are either guardians of children killed in tunnel or walls collapses while mining cobalt in the DRC, or are children who were maimed in such accidents. All plaintiffs are representative of a larger class of unnamed children who have faced similar injuries from mining hazards. All defendants make up a large portion of buyers in the cobalt market. The plaintiffs assert claims for forced child labour in violation of the Trafficking Victims Protection Reauthorization Act. They also seek relief based on common law claims of unjust enrichment, negligent supervision, and intentional infliction of emotional distress. They request that the Court order the defendants to create a fund to contribute to the appropriate medical care of the plaintiffs and other unnamed children who were injured while mining cobalt.

In their motion to dismiss, the companies contend that under the definitions contained in the Trafficking Victims Protection Reauthorization Act (TVPRA), “an entire global supply chain is not a ‘venture’”. The companies further claim that the maimed and dead child miners were not “forced” into labour which they said only encompasses labour that is compelled by direct threats of force or harm from the employer, and not labour that is compelled by other circumstances, such as economic pressure. Finally, the companies claim they did not have “requisite knowledge” of the abuses at the specific mining sites mentioned, and that “knowledge of a general problem in an industry...is insufficient” to prove they knew about the violations that had injured the plaintiffs.

Legal Proceeding

On 15 December 2019, plaintiffs filed a class action in the US District Court for the District of Columbia against Apple, Alphabet, Google, Dell, and Tesla.

On 25 August 2020, the defendants filed a motion in response, denying liability.

https://www.business-humanrights.org...ld-labour-drc/

Anyone who subscribes to Nebula, this is worth a watch:

https://nebula.app/videos/real-engin...ortage-problem

It talks about supply chain issues around manufacturing batteries for EVs from minerals perspective, nickel, lithium iron, cobalt etc.

Australia is probably in a good place to capitalise on this opportunity if we're smart, but we're a nation of morons who can't see past a 3 year election cycle so we'll probably let this pass by us