Wheels Mag: The Top 20 Aussie Muscle Cars

[sbutler]

Originally Posted by ESP

^^^^^^^^^^^

Hmmm.........I thought I felt a breeze...........someone forgot to close the door and now look what happened..........a TROLL has entered.........

Sure you havent been eating to many baked beans again?? :

[sbutler]

Originally Posted by ESP

^^^^^^^^^^^

Hmmm.........I thought I felt a breeze...........someone forgot to close the door and now look what happened..........a TROLL has entered.........

Again the best for of defence is attack :



The same old debate with the same results. The GT was never worthy of the title of being a performance car. It was/is however a great touring car. There is no getting away from that.

The T3 [in particular] a bare bones TE50 manual with Brembo option was worthy of the Performance car title [as it has prooven time & time again.]

This GT V T3 debate is over & has been for a long time.
To those that bought a GT. You have a very very nice long distance touring car. That will deliver you to your destination in comfort.

To those that bought a T3. You have true performance car that will scare the crap out of you if you want. But will never be a grand tourier..

Move forward to now 2008. NOTHING has changed. The GT is still a great touring car.
But the [FG F6 or whatever its called now] has taken over were the T3 left off, as the true performance car. .

The T3 has made it mark as a true [performance car]which has been confirmed again by being put on this list.
The GT is a touring car Not a performance car & thats why it didnt make the cut. Simple really :

[CAT600]

Originally Posted by sbutler

Again the best for of defence is attack :



The same old debate with the same results. The GT was never worthy of the title of being a performance car. It was/is however a great touring car. There is no getting away from that.

The T3 [in particular] a bare bones TE50 manual with Brembo option was worthy of the Performance car title [as it has prooven time & time again.]

This GT V T3 debate is over & has been for a long time.
To those that bought a GT. You have a very very nice long distance touring car. That will deliver you to your destination in comfort.

To those that bought a T3. You have true performance car that will scare the crap out of you if you want. But will never be a grand tourier..

Move forward to now 2008. NOTHING has changed. The GT is still a great touring car.
But the [FG F6 or whatever its called now] has taken over were the T3 left off, as the true performance car. .

The T3 has made it mark as a true [performance car]which has been confirmed again by being put on this list.
The GT is a touring car Not a performance car & thats why it didnt make the cut. Simple really :

Well said Steve

I have owned my fair share of late model gear and driven plenty more, and the T3 would rank well above ANY LS-powered Commodore, and ANY Boss-powered Falcon in terms of contemporary muscle car status

The VL and VN Group A SS's are up their as well, in fact (in an unbiased moment) I would rate the VN Group A SS above the T3 for it's combination of Homologation bodykit/1st header flange location/4 bolt block/twin throttle body induction/ZF 6 speed/twin piston brakes etc, etc, etc.

My "take" on Muscle, is not about brute V8 horsepower, shiny bumpers and carbys, it is about the STORY that goes with the car, it's heritage or it's development path. We all know that once the factory production racers stopped driving from the showroom to the track in the 70's, Factory muscle was dead (you would be an idiot to argue that) but a modern take on it can be traced to the story behind the cars development by the marque.

That's why an:

EB XR6 (driven a few),
ED Sprint (owned one),
Current XR6T or F6 Typhoon (owned two),
Current GT/GT-P (owned one and driven many more),

will never be any form muscle car, there is no "MYSTIQUE" to the car. The T3 on the other hand, is probably the only current day Ford that can pull it off and, why only the VL/VN Group A's (and likely the W427, time will tell) are Holden's only offerings to Muscle.

That is purely my take,

Daniel

[Grunter]

Originally Posted by CAT600

...My "take" on Muscle, is not about brute V8 horsepower, shiny bumpers and carbys, it is about the STORY that goes with the car, it's heritage or it's development path. We all know that once the factory production racers stopped driving from the showroom to the track in the 70's, Factory muscle was dead (you would be an idiot to argue that) but a modern take on it can be traced to the story behind the cars development by the marque....

And it only took 213 post to get, what most would agree, is a great definition of muscle cars.

[Escort_RPDriver]

what i dont get is people consiter the A9X SS Torana Hatch a muscle car but the road vertions were just an ss with a body kit 4 wheel disk brakes and a big fule tank they only had a stock 5.0L where the L34 had like 300BHP to back up its muscle car name.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Escort_RPDriver

what i dont get is people consiter the A9X SS Torana Hatch a muscle car but the road vertions were just an ss with a body kit 4 wheel disk brakes and a big fule tank they only had a stock 5.0L where the L34 had like 300BHP to back up its muscle car name.

While you make some good points the A9X was far more than just a SS hatch (or SLR5000 sedan) with big brakes, tank and body kit....

[Escort_RPDriver]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

While you make some good points the A9X was far more than
just a SS hatch (or SLR5000 sedan) with big brakes, tank and body kit....

oh yeah i forgot they had the RTS suspention they were the first Torana to get it then the UC had it as standared

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Escort_RPDriver

oh yeah i forgot they had the RTS suspention they were the first Torana to get it then the UC had it as standared

Different gearbox, different bumpers, lights, body bracing etc...

[Escort_RPDriver]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Different gearbox, different bumpers, lights, body bracing etc...

wow they had differant body brasing that i didn't know, what was the gear box an M21?.
as for lights and bumpersthat dont give a car muscel car statas.

such a shame they didn't use the L34 engine though would have made the A9X so much cooler.
i still prefure the LJ XU-1 over the LX A9X SS.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Escort_RPDriver

wow they had differant body brasing that, i didn't know what was the gear box an M21?.
as for lights and bumpersthat dont give a car muscel car statas.

such a shame they didn't use the L34 engine though would have made the A9X so much cooler.
i still prefure the LJ XU-1 over the LX A9X SS.

Yes.. special floorpan for the A9X to fit the disk rear and RTS.
Also had the bonnet scoop, thrermo fans, alloy calipers, brake proportioning valve.
A9X used the T10 gearbox (stock was M21), they couldnt use the L34 engine due to ADR27a... but catagory freedoms meant they could on the track...

[Escort_RPDriver]

now i understand the ADR27 killer the muscle car era on you sig

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Escort_RPDriver

now i understand the ADR27 killer the muscle car era on you sig

ADR27 took most of the punch out of the engines in 1974... 27a in 1976 snuffed them out completely!
The A9X deviated more in the way of enhancements and race related mods from the base SLR5000/SS than any other holden special before it bar the engine. IMO it was the ultimate Torana. In many ways it was Holdens "Phase 3"..

[Escort_RPDriver]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

ADR27 took most of the punch out of the engines in 1974... 27a in 1976 snuffed them out completely!
The A9X deviated more in the way of enhancements and race related mods from the base SLR5000/SS than any other holden special before it bar the engine. IMO it was the ultimate Torana. In many ways it was Holdens "Phase 3"..

yeah theres no doubt that the A9X was holdens ultimate Torana i just prefure the look of the LJ LC torana coupes over the LX torana Hatch but i like the LH-LX sedans better
bit like the MK1 escort coupes i like them more than the MK2 coupes but i prefure the MK2 sedans over the MK1 sedans becouse they look cleaner and more natural than the others

[nugget378]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

ADR27 took most of the punch out of the engines in 1974... 27a in 1976 snuffed them out completely!
The A9X deviated more in the way of enhancements and race related mods from the base SLR5000/SS than any other holden special before it bar the engine. IMO it was the ultimate Torana. In many ways it was Holdens "Phase 3"..

Agreed,its alot more car than its engine would suggest,so much tyre under that lightish body makes a hell of a combination,a very hard to beat all round muscle car..

[xbgs351]

Originally Posted by nugget378

Agreed,its alot more car than its engine would suggest,so much tyre under that lightish body makes a hell of a combination,a very hard to beat all round muscle car..

Just look at the historic Group C/A racing where the A9X is the fastest car of the lot and that includes Walkinshaws and turbocharged Skylines.

Also look at Targa events. The A9X Toranas are the only classic car that can get near the classic 911s. In addition the A9Xs are typically amongst the top 20 fastest cars outright.

[snakeoil]

Escort RP...........not havin a crack man but if you ever get the chance to drive an A9X then you will understand what the fuss was all about apart from bathurst 78,79
it gave the dark side a massive edge which Ford could not match

Cheers

[Falcon Coupe]

Agreed, the A9X is a worthy addition, they are asking top dollar for them too:

http://www.australianmusclecarsales....le_view/108606

[Whitey-AMG]

Originally Posted by sbutler

Again the best for of defence is attack :



The same old debate with the same results. The GT was never worthy of the title of being a performance car. It was/is however a great touring car. There is no getting away from that.

The T3 [in particular] a bare bones TE50 manual with Brembo option was worthy of the Performance car title [as it has prooven time & time again.]

This GT V T3 debate is over & has been for a long time.
To those that bought a GT. You have a very very nice long distance touring car. That will deliver you to your destination in comfort.

To those that bought a T3. You have true performance car that will scare the crap out of you if you want. But will never be a grand tourier..

Move forward to now 2008. NOTHING has changed. The GT is still a great touring car.
But the [FG F6 or whatever its called now] has taken over were the T3 left off, as the true performance car. .

The T3 has made it mark as a true [performance car]which has been confirmed again by being put on this list.
The GT is a touring car Not a performance car & thats why it didnt make the cut. Simple really :

All fair and well..........that's just your opinion and MANY will beg to differ.

IMHO........the T3 with its asthmatic top end and one dimensional bottom end performance bias automatically disqualifies it from the category of MUSCLE CAR and no sob story about its production history or stroker motor will help its cause either. It does not have the desirability nor the aura of any 70's AUS FORD muscle car............NOT EVEN CLOSE.

Sure it made this list.....you're happy.......that's fine.
In many of my posts I've extolled the many virtues of the T3 and in the end It's a FORD and I'm happy as well.

[Escort_RPDriver]

Originally Posted by ESP

All fair and well..........that's just your opinion and MANY will beg to differ.

IMHO........the T3 with its asthmatic top end and one dimensional bottom end performance bias automatically disqualifies it from the category of MUSCLE CAR and no sob story about its production history or stroker motor will help its cause either. It does not have the desirability nor the aura of any 70's AUS FORD muscle car............NOT EVEN CLOSE.

Sure it made this list.....you're happy.......that's fine.
In many of my posts I've extolled the many virtues of the T3 and in the end It's a FORD and I'm happy as well.

same should be said about the ESP Falcon the 351 and 302 in them were gutless.
if the T# was so bad why do so meany say it is a better car than the BA and why was it just as quick.

[Escort_RPDriver]

Originally Posted by snakeoil

Escort RP...........not havin a crack man but if you ever get the chance to drive an A9X then you will understand what the fuss was all about apart from bathurst 78,79
it gave the dark side a massive edge which Ford could not match

Cheers

i have driven a 1977 LX SS torana, it was only a 202 4 speed model but is was brilliant car to drive,.
after reading up on the A9X it was just a torana with big brakes and a differant gearbox and a body kit all torana 6 clyinder and up had the same RTS suspention and floor pan from 1977 and onwards

[CAT600]

Originally Posted by Escort_RPDriver

same should be said about the ESP Falcon the 351 and 302 in them were gutless.
if the T# was so bad why do so meany say it is a better car than the BA and why was it just as quick.

Some people cannot look back to go forward. They will buy "newer and more advanced" product, and therefore justify their purchase with repetitive and vocal support.

You will see that several T3 buyers have gone out and added one or two more to their collection. These people have the financial resources to buy a B-series GT or F6, yet they do not.

There is a reason for that, and it is nothing to do with any supposed "one dimensional" facets of said car. Have a read on the "T-series appreciation room", see the soul these cars have and the passion that the owners exude.

Originally Posted by ESP

All fair and well..........that's just your opinion and MANY will beg to differ.

IMHO........the T3 with its asthmatic top end and one dimensional bottom end performance bias automatically disqualifies it from the category of MUSCLE CAR and no sob story about its production history or stroker motor will help its cause either. It does not have the desirability nor the aura of any 70's AUS FORD muscle car............NOT EVEN CLOSE.

Sure it made this list.....you're happy.......that's fine.
In many of my posts I've extolled the many virtues of the T3 and in the end It's a FORD and I'm happy as well.

ESP, Many people may not percieve a T3 to be what Wheels say it is, but I will guarantee you that a B-series GT can never aspire to be even that close.

Your issue, (and the point that renders your "IMHO" irrelevant), is that you have (obviously) never spent decent time behind the wheel of one, because everyone that does, has a vastly different view to yours.

The T3 is contemporary Ford muscle.

The T3 is worthy.

Daniel

[mongoloid]

amen.

[T3-STROKER]

Originally Posted by CAT600

Some people cannot look back to go forward. They will buy "newer and more advanced" product, and therefore justify their purchase with repetitive and vocal support.

You will see that several T3 buyers have gone out and added one or two more to their collection. These people have the financial resources to buy a B-series GT or F6, yet they do not.

There is a reason for that, and it is nothing to do with any supposed "one dimensional" facets of said car. Have a read on the "T-series appreciation room", see the soul these cars have and the passion that the owners exude.


ESP, Many people may not percieve a T3 to be what Wheels say it is, but I will guarantee you that a B-series GT can never aspire to be even that close.

Your issue, (and the point that renders your "IMHO" irrelevant), is that you have (obviously) never spent decent time behind the wheel of one, because everyone that does, has a vastly different view to yours.

The T3 is contemporary Ford muscle.

The T3 is worthy.

Daniel

Got it down to a T mate spot on,its much more worthy then what people think it is.thay just have to spend some time behind the wheel of one to find out. :eclipsee_

[DanielXR8]

Originally Posted by Ives

My thoughts? I think you've just opened a can of worms. I'm waiting for someone to whine "Waaaaa, the Turbo sixes arent muscle cars."

I'm waiting for those who constantly bag Wheels for being in Holdens pocket for including seven Fords and demanding they retract at least four of them to keep the Holden bias theory going. ;)

Dan

[Escort_RPDriver]

Originally Posted by DanielXR8

I'm waiting for those who constantly bag Wheels for being in Holdens pocket for including seven Fords and demanding they retract at least four of them to keep the Holden bias theory going. ;)

Dan

I agree the ford turbo six's are todays XU-1 and RT valiant chargers.

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by Escort_RPDriver

I agree the ford turbo six's are todays XU-1 and RT valiant chargers.

yep "contemporary Muscle" Considering the P3 was made to handle goes against some discriptions of muscle cars anyway.

Muscle car = A Large car that goes fast! Power, and boyracer looks!

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by CAT600

You will see that several T3 buyers have gone out and added one or two more to their collection. These people have the financial resources to buy a B-series GT or F6, yet they do not.

Technically speaking you could buy 3 or 4 T series today for the price of a new GT or F6 though...
The other thing ive often wondered is if these cars had so much "ground pounding" torque how come in the hands of the mags they couldnt break under 14 seconds over the 1/4 when the B series "with no bottom end or torque" could????!!!

[Nikked]

the T3 comes across as a more special car then the FPV GT's, its more exclusive, broke fords design rules, forgot the FTE's orginal purpose, and a hand buil factory stroker (from the last windsor's) is something to get warm and fuzzy about..

[sbutler]

Originally Posted by ESP

Sure it made this list..that's fine.

You said it!! IT MADE THE LIST & that pathetic excuse for a muscle car the FPV GT didnt why? Because IT ISNT! Its so far removed from a muscle car its a joke : But AS I SAID, It is a great touring car.

Originally Posted by ESP

IMHO........the T3 with its asthmatic top end and one dimensional bottom end performance bias automatically disqualifies it from the category of MUSCLE CAR and no sob story about its production history or stroker motor will help its cause either.

Yep sure looks like you extolled the many virtues of the T3.[/? :
In this world there are winners & losers & I wont go any further, because I know Ive have been a winner twice. 1x red TE50 1x black TS50. Both of which if circumstances had been different, I'd still be on the winning team

[Falcon Coupe]

Originally Posted by sbutler

You said it!! IT MADE THE LIST & that pathetic excuse for a muscle car the FPV GT didnt why?

The only pathetic thing i see is the usual suspects pushing the same tired agenda.