Ford Announces New Engine Direction

[Nostalgia]

Originally Posted by sourbastard

Yes, long live the Falcon I6 Legend!

Bathurst Wins: Nil
Supercar Championship Wins: Nil
Group A Wins: Nil
Nascar Wins: Nil
Indianapolis Wins: Nil
Taxi Drag War Wins: Millions

: These stats have nothing to do with my post. It does state IMO.

[Sourbastard]

Originally Posted by EAadam

:

*Hushed Anticipation

<Applause>

[Mark351]

Originally Posted by sourbastard

Yes, long live the Falcon I6 Legend!

Bathurst Wins: Nil
Supercar Championship Wins: Nil
Group A Wins: Nil
Nascar Wins: Nil
Indianapolis Wins: Nil
Taxi Drag War Wins: Millions

Be nice now! It's won rallies, Saloon Car championships, Class C Production Car championships, etc

[Sourbastard]

Originally Posted by DeathXR

Be nice now! It's won rallies, Saloon Car championships, Class C Production Car championships, etc

I try to be nice.... but nothing happens.

Legend of Class C Production Car Championships just doesnt have the same ring to it as Akmals Legendary Taxi Street Weapon.

Lets be fair now, its just a motor, never intended for racing, never really anything special, its a reliable motor for a family car saloon. Poor aftermarket support options. Its like an heirloom that noone had the guts to dispose of until now.

[Mark351]

[QUOTE=sourbastard] never intended for racing[QUOTE]

Try telling Stav that!

[Sourbastard]

Originally Posted by DeathXR

Try telling Stav that!

The sky writer is on the runway as we speak.

[Iphido]

Sorry for the thread mining

Originally Posted by popinfresh

This resulted in a very relaxed and torquey engine that suited the Australian market Judging by current sales, completely False

The falcon isn't selling poorly because of its engine. The rest of the car lets the show down. Small and non adult sized rear doors and rear roof for instance. fairly uncompetive pricing, a design that is based from a 1998 car, less marketing dollars than holden, less volume achiveable than holden, some odd decision on fords part on things like equipment and technology.

The new 6 perhaps, but the pre BA 6 was nothing to get excited about. Look around at 6cyl competitions and see how many 265 Hemi's still end up on top

Yeh and what is the hemi's secret? Capacity!! So ford makes its new six even smaller again!!?!?!

Have you driven the cars these engines are in, or even know what cars the 35 is in?

Have you driven the cars the falcon six is in? Over 2,200 KG empty and a 7 seater. Assume 75kg for 5 occupants and 2 50kg occupants and we have a GVM of nearly 2,700 kg. Then lets add a caravan or boat to that.

Whats comparible? The Ford Freestyle at a lightweight 1800kg? In the US thats a small SUV, when people regularly buy 6.8L V10 or 8.0L V10 for heavy SUV work. These small engines aren't designed to work as they are here in Australia. We don't have 8L SUV so we get by with a engine half the size.

- Lower capacity (see above) Still produces more power

Power at higher revs, and how much more power? 8kw? WOW, thats impressive for a launch. Thats 8kw more than what a very relaxed barra 6 makes today.

More cost and complication for turbo varient Is this proven on this engine? If so, please show me

You will need two turbos, hence the increase in cost of turbocharging. It is extremely difficult to pipe one turbo for two engine heads. V. rare on modern production cars. Same with DI and VCT, two heads complicates things and adds cost.

- Less proven capabilities in the harsh Australian enviroment and driving styles The engine isn't even being used over here yet, how do you know?

Well the falcon engine has been used here for over 40 years!! Your saying this new engine, untested in Australia is better?

I can, it's more economical.

The falcon I6 is more economical than smaller V6's today. I don't see much if any improvement with the new V6, infact worse. Because of the higher lift, higher revs for power, fuel consumption will be worse with out DI and DI would be less effective than on the falcon six engine.

The 35 already has these power figures basically

NO it doesn't it has 198kw. Which is nothing over the falcon six as the falcon six would be quicker with its more useable torque and power. Show me the 35 varient making over 550nm of torque... Hell even modified ones with lower reliability?!! None..

What we see here is the problems in the US operations impacting on Australian product design. Of course, it's a global company.

Yes so good for the US, bad for Australia.

I don't get this, the six currently is nearly as quick as the SOHC V8, turbo its proberly quicker than the DOHC V8 or the FPV v8 while being 30% more economical!!

Ford is getting rid of which engine? OH yeh the good Australian one. The one that has VCT on both cams (not just the inlet!!).

Welcome to the great falcon engine swindle.

[Sourbastard]

Originally Posted by Iphido

I don't get this, the six currently is nearly as quick as the SOHC V8, turbo its proberly quicker than the DOHC V8 or the FPV v8 while being 30% more economical!!

Ford is getting rid of which engine? OH yeh the good Australian one. The one that has VCT on both cams (not just the inlet!!).

Welcome to the great falcon engine swindle.

The reasons behind all this move from ford is simple economics.

One global platform = easier + cheaper.

So all Ford Australia had to do to make our I6 economically sound is

A) Build enough I6 engines to supply the entire Ford Range Worldwide
B) Build an I6 with a dimensional space warp portal to make it small enough to fit in small and medium sized cars
C) Convince the continental US to go back to an engine configuration they abandoned 30 or 40 years ago.
D) Retrain all Ford US & UK Service Mechanics in I6 construction & maintenance.
E) Ramp it all up to happen inside 3 years

as opposed to

A) Introduce an already existing V6 platform to the small AU Market
B) Retrain the smaller Ford Service Workforce on V6 maintenance
C) Utilize existing Engine factory infrastructure in the US to meet extra demand
D) Ramp it up inside 3 years

I wonder which one is easier.

The Motor is Irrelevant. The Logistics is Important. Repeat this mantra.

[JPFS1]

Originally Posted by sourbastard

The reasons behind all this move from ford is simple economics.

One global platform = easier + cheaper.

So all Ford Australia had to do to make our I6 economically sound is

A) Build enough I6 engines to supply the entire Ford Range Worldwide
B) Build an I6 with a dimensional space warp portal to make it small enough to fit in small and medium sized cars
C) Convince the continental US to go back to an engine configuration they abandoned 30 or 40 years ago.
D) Retrain all Ford US & UK Service Mechanics in I6 construction & maintenance.
E) Ramp it all up to happen inside 3 years

as opposed to

A) Introduce an already existing V6 platform to the small AU Market
B) Retrain the smaller Ford Service Workforce on V6 maintenance
C) Utilize existing Engine factory infrastructure in the US to meet extra demand
D) Ramp it up inside 3 years

I wonder which one is easier.

The Motor is Irrelevant. The Logistics is Important. Repeat this mantra.

Doesn't get much simpler than that.

[Dave_au]

Originally Posted by sourbastard

The reasons behind all this move from ford is simple economics.

All those points as SB mentioned - and above all, the 4.0L is not going to be Euro IV emissions standard compliant.

From what I understand, Ford Aus have found that it would be uneconomical to convert the engine to these strict emission laws, and coupled with the fact they want to export the next Falcon to other countries that will have Euro IV or stricter, selecting the compliant cyclone engine makes sense.

I'm also going to assume that this will mean that there will probably be little chance of a dedicated export program for the Orion until 2010 - unless they export the v8s only.

[Mark351]

We can repeat common sense ad nauseum, it's struggling to sink in.

[Sourbastard]

Originally Posted by DeathXR

We can repeat common sense ad nauseum, it's struggling to sink in.

seems the case. This thread may be nearing its common sense end.

[Perana]

Originally Posted by sourbastard

The reasons behind all this move from ford is simple economics.

Problem is Iphido doesn't understand simple Economics.. It's obvious with posts requesting a special edition "run out" fairlane with LED tail lights, BOSS engine and *insert technology that would require tens of thousands of $$$ investment into R&D and ADR's*

[Barry_v]

they should change the name, its no longer a falcon. perhaps a more fitting name like "economically viable turkey".

[Aussie Falcon]

An article in today Australian that showed the I6 in a positive light:

Demise of the inline six ends proud tradition

Author: Philip King, Motoring Editor

THE Ford Falcon and the inline six-cylinder engine have gone hand-in-hand since the first version of the popular large sedan was launched 47 years ago.

Australia's longest-running vehicle nameplate has been through dozens of overhauls and upgrades in that half-century, so it might come as a surprise to find today's car and the original still have something in common.

One part straddles the divide, and in its critical dimensions still bears the hallmarks of the original: the cylinder block.

Under the bonnet -- and under all the plastic covers and plumbing -- the iron casting used in today's engine can trace its ancestry back to the 2.4-litre unit in the original XK Falcon.

That engine developed 67kW of power -- paltry by today's standards, although ahead of the equivalent Holden at the time.

As motoring technology has moved forward and our car market has become more open to imports, the Ford engine has moved to keep up. It has grown and evolved, adding alloy components, electronic controls and becoming more sophisticated. Today's 4.0-litre unit pumps out 190kW -- nearly three times the power of the original -- and remains a lively performer, with an edge over its Holden rivals.

The last major upgrade was five years ago when Ford spent hundreds of millions to improve its poorly received AU Falcon.

Besides the substantial sheet metal changes introduced in the BA series, the engine made huge technical leaps -- introducing double overhead camshafts with variable timing, for example.

Ford surprised observers with a high-performance turbocharged variant that quickly became a favourite. The turbocharged XR6 was quick enough to give Commodore drivers a scare at traffic lights, and challenged the traditional wisdom that V8s rule.

When Ford Australia launched the Territory SUV in 2004, its inline six-cylinder was the only engine choice. That last raft of engineering improvements got the Falcon over the tighter emission standards introduced in 2006, but time and industry trends are catching up with the ``Barra'', as Ford calls it.

With large car demand in decline, Geelong needs to make fewer engines to supply the Broadmeadows assembly plant. Outside the few Falcons and Territorys exported to New Zealand and South Africa, there is no overseas market for the engine, and none is likely to emerge.

From an engineering point of view, an inline six-cylinder engine is inherently smoother than six cylinders arranged in a V, but much harder to fit into a car.

Because a V6 takes up less space, it liberates designers, means one engine can fit in a wider variety of vehicles and makes it easier to achieve more rigorous safety standards.

So local idiosyncracies such as the Barra are being ironed out by globalisation of the industry, and with question marks over its ability to meet new emission regulations in 2010, the demise of the local inline six was inevitable.

But with nothing to replace it at the Geelong factory, this marks a profound shift in the relationship between the car giant and the town that goes back to 1925, when Ford set up an assembly line for the Model T.

[Van D]

Originally Posted by Iphido

*The falcon isn't selling poorly because of its engine. The rest of the car lets the show down. Small and non adult sized rear doors and rear roof for instance. fairly uncompetive pricing, a design that is based from a 1998 car, less marketing dollars than holden, less volume achiveable than holden, some odd decision on fords part on things like equipment and technology.
Whilst those points add to it, i'm sure if the falcon was more economical it'd be selling a lot better.

Yeh and what is the hemi's secret? Capacity!! So ford makes its new six even smaller again!!?!?!
So, first the V6 haters say American's are dumb for just making engines bigger, now they're complaining about using more technology in a smaller engine to make it work?

Have you driven the cars the falcon six is in? Over 2,200 KG empty and a 7 seater. Assume 75kg for 5 occupants and 2 50kg occupants and we have a GVM of nearly 2,700 kg. Then lets add a caravan or boat to that.
If you read my posts, you would have seen i've owned 3 I6 falcons, and the family (since i've been born at least) has been through about 7.


Whats comparible? The Ford Freestyle at a lightweight 1800kg? In the US thats a small SUV, when people regularly buy 6.8L V10 or 8.0L V10 for heavy SUV work. These small engines aren't designed to work as they are here in Australia. We don't have 8L SUV so we get by with a engine half the size.
But Ford have to make do. I don't see other companies running 6+L engines in their mid sized cars over here.

Power at higher revs, and how much more power? 8kw? WOW, thats impressive for a launch. Thats 8kw more than what a very relaxed barra 6 makes today.
And the barra had years and years of refining and improvement. This V6 is only new, and I doubt they'd just bring it over here with those figures.

You will need two turbos, hence the increase in cost of turbocharging. It is extremely difficult to pipe one turbo for two engine heads. V. rare on modern production cars. Same with DI and VCT, two heads complicates things and adds cost.
I see plenty of other manufacturers using twin turbo, it might be a bit more but i'm sure it's not going to break the bank.


Well the falcon engine has been used here for over 40 years!! Your saying this new engine, untested in Australia is better?
No, i'm saying we don't KNOW it's worse.

The falcon I6 is more economical than smaller V6's today. I don't see much if any improvement with the new V6, infact worse. Because of the higher lift, higher revs for power, fuel consumption will be worse with out DI and DI would be less effective than on the falcon six engine.
I think that's a far call. The I6 is very inconsistent with fuel consumption, we baby ours and it still uses 12L/100k. That's more than my XF and I drive it harder.

NO it doesn't it has 198kw. Which is nothing over the falcon six as the falcon six would be quicker with its more useable torque and power. Show me the 35 varient making over 550nm of torque... Hell even modified ones with lower reliability?!! None..
I haven't looked, have you? Same answer above about power really..

I think SB summed up what I was saying anyway.

[shepv8]

Ill fire this all up again for those saying they should change the falcon name because the I6 is gone and " the falcon" no longer exists :
IMO a proper falcon has a V8 under the bonnet. Anything else is a taxi. If you want a taxi , hyundai has some pretty good deals going ( since your leaving the blue oval fold anyway )


A new ,powerful, efficient , modern V6 will interest people who looked at other cars like magna's especially when the economy and performance are better than the I6. The V6 has a link to V8's in peoples subconcious and blokes who would love a V8 but cant get one settle for V6's. If it sells half as well as the V6 commodore it will still be doing better than the current falcon.

The thread is getting quiet.. does that mean people are already at the hyundai car yards begging them to build an I6 accent?

[Dazza TT]

Originally Posted by shepv8

a proper falcon has a V8 under the bonnet. Anything else is a taxi.

I'm glad thousands of 6 Cyl Falcon customers don't feel the same way, otherwise your precious V8 Falcons would have been gone a long time ago.
I highly doubt Ford would have survived too long at all on V8 Sales alone. :

They've all got the same blue oval badge on the front, and thats all that matters IMO.

[shepv8]

Originally Posted by Darran

I'm glad thousands of 6 Cyl Falcon customers don't feel the same way, otherwise your precious V8 Falcons would have been gone a long time ago.
I highly doubt Ford would have survived too long at all on V8 Sales alone. :

They've all got the same blue oval badge on the front, and thats all that matters IMO.

Yeah I know . Just a thought though, did the demise of the 1982 XE falcon V8 ans susequent V8 falcons until EB hurt or benefit the company.
anyway, that argument isnt what this thread is about so I shouldnt have mentioned it but, its getting a bit old people telling us that because the holy grail of engines a.k.a the I6 isnt going into falcon much longer, the car is no longer a falcon. Well, ive owned 3 XR8's ( EB, AU , BA) so to me, the I6 going means nothing except a chance to modernise a dated engine.
My oldies have owned an XF 6, and an EB 6. Now they drive an older V6 commodore. I love fords but both I6's were tractor motors.
When the Boss motor came out , I was stoked we were getting a new motor to replace the old windsor, which, if Im not mistaken is much older than the I6.

[asusdragon]

well just spend like an 1hr reading from where i left off last, night and have had a few new thoughts, well i dont really get a say if ford use a i6 or a v6, but with them going v6 i think its will be time that drop the falcon name what for 47years it has been hand in hand I6 and falcon (yesw or V8 lol) so with the new duratec v6 going in a think its time for a new model name

[Nostalgia]

Originally Posted by asus_dragonorb

well just spend like an 1hr reading from where i left off last, night and have had a few new thoughts, well i dont really get a say if ford use a i6 or a v6, but with them going v6 i think its will be time that drop the falcon name what for 47years it has been hand in hand I6 and falcon (yesw or V8 lol) so with the new duratec v6 going in a think its time for a new model name

Not the best english but i see where you coming from and i agree. No i6, No Falcon.

[asusdragon]

Originally Posted by EAadam

Not the best english but i see where you coming from and i agree. No i6, No Falcon.

sorry bout that, after 1hr reading that the eyes and hand arent working to well

[Mark351]

New name plates = commercial suicide - not going to happen. Any large RWD sedan car designed, engineered and assembled here in a Ford factory regardless of the 6 cylinder configuration earns a Falcon badge.

[Nostalgia]

Originally Posted by asus_dragonorb

sorry bout that, after 1hr reading that the eyes and hand arent working to well

No worries mate. Mum says it will make you blind

[Barry_v]

I really cant understand how people can even try to defend this decision. its a smaller engine in a worse configuration. its purely economic, its like trying to put a positive slant on a tax rise.

[Pumpit]

Originally Posted by sourbastard

The Motor is Irrelevant. The Logistics is Important. Repeat this mantra.

If you are a paper pusher, yes. Engineer, no.

Accountants and Paper pushers don't produce the cars we love, Real people do. Repeat this mantra

[Sourbastard]

Originally Posted by Pumpit

If you are a paper pusher, yes. Engineer, no.

Accountants and Paper pushers don't produce the cars we love, Real people do. Repeat this mantra

Are you for real? Economics play a far larger role in the car industry then engineering ever will. Its a a REAL business, not Willy Wonkas Falcon Factory. And you will also find that there are far more accountants running the car industry then engineers.

You can design a car to be 2500kg with 500kw, but guess what, the accountants are the ones who will tell you no, based on cost.

Real People Indeed.

[Pumpit]

Originally Posted by sourbastard

Are you for real? Economics play a far larger role in the car industry then engineering ever will. Its a a REAL business, not Willy Wonkas Falcon Factory. And you will also find that there are far more accountants running the car industry then engineers.

You can design a car to be 2500kg with 500kw, but guess what, the accountants are the ones who will tell you no, based on cost.

Real People Indeed.

The paper pushers have been running the show for too long. The abject stupidity of jettisoning this engine when it was just getting good proves it.

But then again, arguing the point on the net with people who actually swallowed that seppo's bullshit is a exercise in futility.

[Sourbastard]

Originally Posted by Pumpit

The paper pushers have been running the show for too long. The abject stupidity of jettisoning this engine when it was just getting good proves it.

But then again, arguing the point on the net with people who actually swallowed that seppo's bullshit is a exercise in futility.

Yeah, if you wish hard enough Ford will bring the I6 back, let me know how that goes.

thread closed.