Welcome to the Australian Ford Forums forum.

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and inserts advertising. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members, respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features without post based advertising banners. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.

After the recent upgrade, users having difficulty with logging in will need to clear their browser cache and cookies so that a new cookie can be issued - instructions can be found in the link above.

Go Back   Australian Ford Forums > General Topics > The Pub

The Pub For General Automotive Related Talk

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 24-03-2011, 06:55 PM   #1
flappist
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,312
Valued Contributor: For members whose non technical contributions are worthy of recognition. - Issue reason: For your contribution to the AFF community. 
Default Ford & FPV website configurator

I usually try to stay off the "Ford/FPV bashing" track but sometimes they do such STUPID things that are just annoying.

I am in the process of buying a new car and am jumping all over the web playing with various "build" systems seeing what costs what is available and how my budget could be "moulded"

A while ago the nannies at the ACCC in their attempt to stomp on the scammo $1 air fares etc. (apparantly we are all to stupid to understand that you can't actually fly first class around the world for $1) made it difficult to put pricing on car web sites as it had to include all the costs involved.

Looking around it seems that just about everyone has got this sorted.
All of the sites I go to except two ask for a postcode and then work out the RRP delivered inc state costs.

BUT NOT FORD OR FPV (FPV do the NZ one though)

Their clever idea......email for a quote.

Get stuffed.

I want to play mix and match NOW not every few days when they decide to get back to me.

Or go to a dealer.

See above......

Why would I ask someone who usually knows less about the vehicle than me and whose only interest is selling the combination that will make him personally the highest commission (being the one in stock or is coming shortly from their preorder)?

I want to buy a BMW, yes sir everything is there for you what options do you need priced?

Toyota, Nissan, Mazda....whatever all seem to be able to make it work.

But not Ford and not FPV.

Like they really NEED to reduce sales by making it harder.

I wonder if anyone in Ford actually realise that the majority of car buyers are NOT Ford vs Holden bogans who will always buy their tribal icon regardless?

P.S. Holden don't do it either so if I were considering Falcon G6 vs Commodore vs Aurion it is much easier to buy the Toyota as I could work it all out without some gold toothed rat pressuring me.

Or Focus vs Mazda 3 vs Corolla etc.
Or Mondeo vs........

No public pricing, just one more reason to not even consider any Ford vehicle of any type from the Fiesta upwards..............

Last edited by SpoolMan; 25-03-2011 at 10:36 AM. Reason: political
flappist is offline   Reply With Quote Multi-Quote with this Post
Old 24-03-2011, 06:57 PM   #2
Mr Hardware
Flairs - Truckers Delight
 
Mr Hardware's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brisbane Northside Likes: Opposite Lock
Posts: 5,612
Tech Writer: Recognition for the technical writers of AFF - Issue reason: The excellent how to on LPG jet cleaning. 
Default Re: Ford & FPV website configurator

So ah, did you email them telling them this?
__________________
Shimmer Blue 2007 ZRE152 Toyota Corolla Conquest Automatic Sedan "Shibby"
Regency Red 2000 AUII Ford Falcon Forte Automatic Sedan Tickford LPG "Millennium Falcon"
Torquay Sand 1982 VH Holden Commodore SL Automatic Sedan "Grumble&Whine"
Mr Hardware is offline   Reply With Quote Multi-Quote with this Post
Old 24-03-2011, 07:08 PM   #3
fou_bleu
Get EcoBoosted
 
fou_bleu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: NSW: Newcastle, Sydney & Wollongong
Posts: 1,882
Default Re: Ford & FPV website configurator

I agree... but. If the website says $21,000 for a Fiesta specced to your needs, yet realistically Ford have to charge $22,000, how well will that look?

I'd rather them not publicly price than lie and having people lining up at FoA for lawsuits...

PS: You'd go car shopping without actually looking at the car???
fou_bleu is offline   Reply With Quote Multi-Quote with this Post
Old 24-03-2011, 07:25 PM   #4
flappist
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,312
Valued Contributor: For members whose non technical contributions are worthy of recognition. - Issue reason: For your contribution to the AFF community. 
Default Re: Ford & FPV website configurator

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4RD4TW
I agree... but. If the website says $21,000 for a Fiesta specced to your needs, yet realistically Ford have to charge $22,000, how well will that look?

I'd rather them not publicly price than lie and having people lining up at FoA for lawsuits...

PS: You'd go car shopping without actually looking at the car???
Absolutely.

I ordered my GT-P before they were available. My datto was the first of its type in Australia (the second one was the one in the review and BFYB).

I know what a FG looks like and if my hard budget is for example $46000 then what combinations can I afford?

If the website says $21k and it is not $21k that they are in exactly the same position as before the ACCC.

If you were considering leather and a satnav in your XR6 and HAD to have a reversing camera and auto can you afford a turbo or will you have to buy a N/A?
If you drop the satnav can you now afford the T?
If you only get 18s and cloth seats now can you afford the T?

Or do you give up on the T and look at something else?

I am considering an ISF, GT-E, 335i or 135i. Three of these are easy one is a pain......guess which?
flappist is offline   Reply With Quote Multi-Quote with this Post
Old 24-03-2011, 08:11 PM   #5
Big Damo
Donating Member
Donating Member3
 
Big Damo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Country Victoria
Posts: 9,222
Default Re: Ford & FPV website configurator

Quote:
Originally Posted by flappist
Absolutely.

I ordered my GT-P before they were available. My datto was the first of its type in Australia (the second one was the one in the review and BFYB).

I know what a FG looks like and if my hard budget is for example $46000 then what combinations can I afford?

If the website says $21k and it is not $21k that they are in exactly the same position as before the ACCC.

If you were considering leather and a satnav in your XR6 and HAD to have a reversing camera and auto can you afford a turbo or will you have to buy a N/A?
If you drop the satnav can you now afford the T?
If you only get 18s and cloth seats now can you afford the T?

Or do you give up on the T and look at something else?

I am considering an ISF, GT-E, 335i or 135i. Three of these are easy one is a pain......guess which?
Its quite annoying considering how much everything is online now, Hyundai asks you for your state and it gives a price based on that, which is what Ford should do. If I could do something online rather than having to deal with people in person, I'd rather do that.

I say go on principle and buy elsewhere.
__________________
Quote:
Noone's disputing that a V8 RWD will trounce most FWDs in a straight line. But people are implying a RWD is a better car overall dynamically because its good in a straight line. That's like saying Julia Gillard is sexier than Miranda Kerr because she has bigger tits.
Big Damo is offline   Reply With Quote Multi-Quote with this Post
Old 24-03-2011, 09:03 PM   #6
DJM83
Powered by Ford EcoBoost.
Donating Member1
 
DJM83's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 15,495
Default Re: Ford & FPV website configurator

Quote:
Originally Posted by flappist

I am considering an ISF, GT-E, 335i or 135i. Three of these are easy one is a pain......guess which?
I have to disagree here, if i were in the market for either of the above cars i couldnt care what the internet page says id be going straight to a dealer as that is a lot of money.
I understand you probably wouldnt buy it based on what is on the internet page though
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
DJM83 is offline   Reply With Quote Multi-Quote with this Post
Old 24-03-2011, 09:24 PM   #7
Adamz Ghia
Regular Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 393
Default Re: Ford & FPV website configurator

I gotta agree with Flappist. When I buy a car, I like to know as much as possible what $$$ I'm up for before I go in, and with the world becoming more online every day, Ford not having pricing on the website is like Coles not having prices on the Cornflakes on the supermarket shelf. Not good enough. It's not hard for them to do. But I guess it's not a good thing for them to have customers having too much knowlege and bargaining power...
Adamz Ghia is offline   Reply With Quote Multi-Quote with this Post
Old 24-03-2011, 09:31 PM   #8
flappist
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,312
Valued Contributor: For members whose non technical contributions are worthy of recognition. - Issue reason: For your contribution to the AFF community. 
Default Re: Ford & FPV website configurator

Quote:
Originally Posted by DJM83
I have to disagree here, if i were in the market for either of the above cars i couldnt care what the internet page says id be going straight to a dealer as that is a lot of money.
I understand you probably wouldnt buy it based on what is on the internet page though
But then Dallas, how do I work out what I can actually afford.

ISFs are about $135k, 1 series go from $70k to $150k, 3 series from $110k to well over $200k.

If, for example, I decided on a 135 then the DCT costs, the leather and paint cost, the wheels cost, the satnav and ICC cost and I can mix and match.
The same for most of the others.

When I have decided that a vehicle is in my price range I then go, test drive (if it is my personal car) and negotiate.

P.S. ISFs go like cut cats are smooth as silk and quiet as a mouse until you stand on the go pedal, M3s are playstations on wheels and 135s are one of the best kept secrets in the performance car market. They are bloody unbelievable........

Of the last 6 new cars I have bought (GT-P, F6, Yaris, Getz, Navara, Ranger and 350Z) I only test drove 2 (F6 & 350Z) and sat in the demo GT-P at the Brisbane Motor Show in 2003. The rest were straight off the internet and then over the phone. I still have not driven or even sat in the Ranger (owned since October).

If they are not my personal drive cars then I really don't care much about anything except operating costs and resale.
flappist is offline   Reply With Quote Multi-Quote with this Post
Old 24-03-2011, 10:48 PM   #9
phoonfan
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Ringwood VIC
Posts: 578
Default Re: Ford & FPV website configurator

Hey Flappist, PM what you want with options, i'll work it out for you!

i'll even take my gold tooth out!
phoonfan is offline   Reply With Quote Multi-Quote with this Post
Old 25-03-2011, 01:45 AM   #10
deesun
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
 
deesun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,844
Default Re: Ford & FPV website configurator

It's a long way from Hervey Bay to Vic but at least you are trying. Thats really not the point though. If all the others can do it then why not FORD and FPV?
__________________
igodabigblackshinycar and I relented and allowed a BMW into the garage.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
deesun is offline   Reply With Quote Multi-Quote with this Post
Old 25-03-2011, 02:14 AM   #11
1TUFFUTE
Stalling up 4 my country
 
1TUFFUTE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Ipswich QLD
Posts: 2,998
Default Re: Ford & FPV website configurator

i say they should keep up with the times and get net savvy. People want to eye shop there stuff before there purchase..and if its made easy...guess what...its easy
__________________
G6ET 270kw 533Nm
Go the QLD REDS


Signature by PRYDEY
"a lot of you guys have been throwing rocks for a long time, and yet falcon is still here, and at least 1 more iteration is on the way. surely your arms must be getting sore.

have you ever heard the term 'self fulfilling prophecy'? in 2054 when falcon dies, you can hobble out on your zimmer frame and croak 'i told you so...'"


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
1TUFFUTE is offline   Reply With Quote Multi-Quote with this Post
Old 25-03-2011, 07:48 AM   #12
blk6t
Regular Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 399
Default Re: Ford & FPV website configurator

Mate, what I have been doing because i'm looking at a new car is using the power of CARSALES.

Do a search of brand new cars in stock...ready to go. This will give you a really good indication of driveaway dealership prices and what inclusions are on the car. These cars are not demos, just built and awaiting a new owner.

Just for example there was recently a Holden SS Ute for $34k drive away with leather and auto....zero kms. 2010 plated but just sitting there awaiting an owner. So if I was in the market for a Holden ute (which I am not), then I have a basis of where I can expect the sales price to be agreed with a dealer for a similar product.

I love carsales!!!!
__________________
FG GT...Supercharged Bliss
blk6t is offline   Reply With Quote Multi-Quote with this Post
Old 25-03-2011, 09:41 AM   #13
deesun
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
 
deesun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,844
Default Re: Ford & FPV website configurator

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1TUFFUTE
i say they should keep up with the times and get net savvy. People want to eye shop there stuff before there purchase..and if its made easy...guess what...its easy
+1.
You should be able to "build" a car and get as close as possible to a price.
__________________
igodabigblackshinycar and I relented and allowed a BMW into the garage.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
deesun is offline   Reply With Quote Multi-Quote with this Post
Old 25-03-2011, 09:43 AM   #14
GTP owner
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
 
GTP owner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: TAS
Posts: 2,477
Default Re: Ford & FPV website configurator

I agree with blk6t. Use carsales for a good indication of what is available and for what price. I prefer to go into the dealer with figures already close in my head, and then play two dealers off against each other. I will let them know that by the end of the week i will sign for a new car, and let them work to make me sign for their car. I don't care how far away the dealer is either. The cost to transport to my front door is negligible in the whole scheme of things
__________________
XA coupe 9.2sec @ 149mph
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

BA GT-P for the shed
BF XR6T 12.260@116mph for sale.
E3 chubsport - fully fat (and slow)
NT Pajero for the bush
XB 4 door project...
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


My best mate is addicted to drinking brake fluid. He reckons he can stop any time.......
GTP owner is offline   Reply With Quote Multi-Quote with this Post
Old 25-03-2011, 10:31 AM   #15
FordRTV08
Ford GS Supercharged
 
FordRTV08's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 18
Default Re: Ford & FPV website configurator

No one has mentioned a phone call?? Just ring a dealer and ask the comparison costs while looking at the website for the different options.
FordRTV08 is offline   Reply With Quote Multi-Quote with this Post
Old 25-03-2011, 10:46 AM   #16
flappist
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,312
Valued Contributor: For members whose non technical contributions are worthy of recognition. - Issue reason: For your contribution to the AFF community. 
Default Re: Ford & FPV website configurator

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTP owner
I agree with blk6t. Use carsales for a good indication of what is available and for what price. I prefer to go into the dealer with figures already close in my head, and then play two dealers off against each other. I will let them know that by the end of the week i will sign for a new car, and let them work to make me sign for their car. I don't care how far away the dealer is either. The cost to transport to my front door is negligible in the whole scheme of things
Provided you want to buy a povvo pak vehicle.

Carsales seldom has anything except extremely basic vehicles.

Do a quick look now for new FPVs or falcons fitted with upgraded brakes, satnavs, rear cameras or other factory options. Not a lot of choice....
(actually look for a new GT that has anything other than stripes)

The idea of the configurator is to look at new as yet unbuilt totally custom cars not what some sales guy thinks will sell quickly.

The majority of FPVs (and HSVs) are sold on power by the hour to non private users (people who claim the vehicles against some sort of income or novate) so the actual retail price is often not as important as getting the vehicle exactly right.
flappist is offline   Reply With Quote Multi-Quote with this Post
Old 25-03-2011, 10:51 AM   #17
flappist
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,312
Valued Contributor: For members whose non technical contributions are worthy of recognition. - Issue reason: For your contribution to the AFF community. 
Default Re: Ford & FPV website configurator

Quote:
Originally Posted by FordRTV08
No one has mentioned a phone call?? Just ring a dealer and ask the comparison costs while looking at the website for the different options.
Yes I often ring dealers at 10pm when I am comparing various options.

But a conversation like:

Ok XR6T, leather, satnav, reversing, auto, 19" how much?...take out the satnav....put it back in but take out the reversing....what about a g6et in the same....can you get that in green still...hmm maybe a GS instead....is the auto free....no back to the 6.....ah what about.....

Will end in ....go away you bloody wood duck.....CLUNK
flappist is offline   Reply With Quote Multi-Quote with this Post
Old 25-03-2011, 10:53 AM   #18
FTE72
Red is nice Mark.
 
FTE72's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Brisvegas
Posts: 1,386
Default Re: Ford & FPV website configurator

Quote:
Originally Posted by flappist
Their clever idea......email for a quote.

Get stuffed.

I want to play mix and match NOW not every few days when they decide to get back to me.

Or go to a dealer.

.
I agree with Flappist. I asked for a quote in September 2010 and asked to be contacted by a dealer....still waiting. What is the point of the configurator without pricing anyway?
__________________
Twin T3's
TE 50 #72 Blueprint & TS 50 #105 Blueprint

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
:
FTE72 is offline   Reply With Quote Multi-Quote with this Post
Old 25-03-2011, 11:22 AM   #19
Elks
Donating Member
Donating Member3
 
Elks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 4,108
Default Re: Ford & FPV website configurator

You can thank the Government and the ACCC.

Pricing used to be a part of the configurator or what they call it. But all prices must be actual drive away, not just list.

So they must include rego, stamp duty and other charges. Rego charges vary from state to state, metro to country, if your a pensioner or not, etc. They didn't want to put the highest cost as they might scare of customers and they cant put the lowest as they would be held to it.

So the manufacturers as a group therefore decided not to list pricing anymore. I'm sure they could have worked out a way but chose not to. If you go to Holden or Toyota you will find the same thing, no pricing.

Interesting that Hyundai have again stepped away with their "drive away" pricing
__________________
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
ZF Fairlane 5.0 Cleveland
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
FPV GT-E 5.0 S/C Miami
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
FTe TS50 Series II 5.0 Windsor
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
:
That's 15 litres of goodness right there
Elks is offline   Reply With Quote Multi-Quote with this Post
Old 25-03-2011, 11:35 AM   #20
flappist
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,312
Valued Contributor: For members whose non technical contributions are worthy of recognition. - Issue reason: For your contribution to the AFF community. 
Default Re: Ford & FPV website configurator

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elks
You can thank the Government and the ACCC.

Pricing used to be a part of the configurator or what they call it. But all prices must be actual drive away, not just list.

So they must include rego, stamp duty and other charges. Rego charges vary from state to state, metro to country, if your a pensioner or not, etc. They didn't want to put the highest cost as they might scare of customers and they cant put the lowest as they would be held to it.

So the manufacturers as a group therefore decided not to list pricing anymore. I'm sure they could have worked out a way but chose not to. If you go to Holden or Toyota you will find the same thing, no pricing.

Interesting that Hyundai have again stepped away with their "drive away" pricing
Try going to Toyota again.......
Or Mazda, BMW etc etc.
flappist is offline   Reply With Quote Multi-Quote with this Post
Old 25-03-2011, 12:02 PM   #21
Scott
.
 
Scott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 6,207
Default Re: Ford & FPV website configurator

Agree, it is a PITA.

I've recently been looking at GT's and Rangers but have been relegated to Carsales.com.au for an idea of pricing.

I am less caring of Ford/FPV's feelings and have for a very long time just known that their marketing department are among the most useless I have ever experienced. Fortunately for them, another department at FoA beats them for "overall most useless and annoying" but I'm sure there is another thread or two on them somewhere..

I struggle with finding reasons to spend money with them anymore - and I struggle to care about their future (jobs aside).

Really, how bloody hard is it for a global company to get right?
Scott is offline   Reply With Quote Multi-Quote with this Post
Old 25-03-2011, 12:06 PM   #22
GTP owner
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
 
GTP owner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: TAS
Posts: 2,477
Default Re: Ford & FPV website configurator

Quote:
Originally Posted by flappist
Provided you want to buy a povvo pak vehicle.

Carsales seldom has anything except extremely basic vehicles.

Do a quick look now for new FPVs or falcons fitted with upgraded brakes, satnavs, rear cameras or other factory options. Not a lot of choice....
(actually look for a new GT that has anything other than stripes)

The idea of the configurator is to look at new as yet unbuilt totally custom cars not what some sales guy thinks will sell quickly.

The majority of FPVs (and HSVs) are sold on power by the hour to non private users (people who claim the vehicles against some sort of income or novate) so the actual retail price is often not as important as getting the vehicle exactly right.
True. I buy as a business, so the prices are effected by that.

My last experience in trying to buy a discovery series 4 ended in frustration and a cancelled order. I walked into Misubishi and within 5 minutes had all the details i needed (prices and configurations), and had the new pajero in the driveway later that week.
__________________
XA coupe 9.2sec @ 149mph
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

BA GT-P for the shed
BF XR6T 12.260@116mph for sale.
E3 chubsport - fully fat (and slow)
NT Pajero for the bush
XB 4 door project...
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


My best mate is addicted to drinking brake fluid. He reckons he can stop any time.......
GTP owner is offline   Reply With Quote Multi-Quote with this Post
Old 25-03-2011, 07:27 PM   #23
Dr Smith
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Melb.
Posts: 2,793
Default Re: Ford & FPV website configurator

Merc and VW don't offer this facilty I believe.
Dr Smith is offline   Reply With Quote Multi-Quote with this Post
Old 25-03-2011, 07:41 PM   #24
DJM83
Powered by Ford EcoBoost.
Donating Member1
 
DJM83's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 15,495
Default Re: Ford & FPV website configurator

Quote:
Originally Posted by flappist
But then Dallas, how do I work out what I can actually afford.

ISFs are about $135k, 1 series go from $70k to $150k, 3 series from $110k to well over $200k.

If, for example, I decided on a 135 then the DCT costs, the leather and paint cost, the wheels cost, the satnav and ICC cost and I can mix and match.
The same for most of the others.

When I have decided that a vehicle is in my price range I then go, test drive (if it is my personal car) and negotiate.

P.S. ISFs go like cut cats are smooth as silk and quiet as a mouse until you stand on the go pedal, M3s are playstations on wheels and 135s are one of the best kept secrets in the performance car market. They are bloody unbelievable........

Of the last 6 new cars I have bought (GT-P, F6, Yaris, Getz, Navara, Ranger and 350Z) I only test drove 2 (F6 & 350Z) and sat in the demo GT-P at the Brisbane Motor Show in 2003. The rest were straight off the internet and then over the phone. I still have not driven or even sat in the Ranger (owned since October).

If they are not my personal drive cars then I really don't care much about anything except operating costs and resale.
Yep valid points there, i guess as just an 'indicator' on price its good. Im speaking from my purchase of my Focus i wasnt bombarded with options so i was pretty safe.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
DJM83 is offline   Reply With Quote Multi-Quote with this Post
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +11. The time now is 11:53 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Other than what is legally copyrighted by the respective owners, this site is copyright www.fordforums.com.au