Welcome to the Australian Ford Forums forum.

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and inserts advertising. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members, respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features without post based advertising banners. Registration is simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.

Please Note: All new registrations go through a manual approval queue to keep spammers out. This is checked twice each day so there will be a delay before your registration is activated.

Go Back   Australian Ford Forums > General Topics > The Pub

The Pub For General Automotive Related Talk

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-08-2018, 06:55 PM   #1
zlcrazy
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
 
zlcrazy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 627
Question Falcons towing Falcons - Legalities

Hi all

As the headline reads I am curious about such sights.

I regularly see Falcons (An Commodores) towing similar weighted vehicles on car trailers. Some of these tow cars are only fitted with 1600kg tow bars. Even if they were fitted with the 2300kg tow bars surely they still are overloaded.

Surely this is illegal and quite dangerous.

So what are peoples thoughts on this here? I ask as I was considering buying an AU Falcon/Fairmont for such use but don't want to break the law.

Any input must appreciated :-)
__________________
2005 BAII Falcon XR6T - Velocity Blue
Factory Options; Sunroof, Premium Sound, Plexus Blue Cloth Trim.
Genuine Accessories; XR Scuff Plates, XR Blue Carpet Mats, Boot Liner, Cargo Net, Aux Audio Input (Boosted Type), Front & Rear Mudflaps, Headlamp Protectors, Bluetooth and Mobile Phone Holder.

[B]2000 AU2 Fairmont Wagon - Congo Green
Factory Smart Bullbar, Hayman Reese Heavy Duty 2300kg Towpack and Front and Rear Mudflaps.
zlcrazy is offline   Reply With Quote Multi-Quote with this Post
Old 03-08-2018, 07:05 PM   #2
falconhell74
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
 
falconhell74's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Serpentine W.A.
Posts: 1,639
Default Re: Falcons towing Falcons - Legalities

Not sure in other states but in WA its illegal to tow a falcon/ commodore model from about 2000 on wards EG ; Au falcon to present due to vehicle weight as I tried to hire one about a month back and was told that I will need to hire a tilt tray.
__________________
XC GS OLD SCHOOL MUSCLE

Audi A4 S-line quttro
Xc falcon
Previous fords-
xc falcon 500 ,250 x flow 3 speed
xc gs worked 250 x flow 4 speed
xa Fairmont 302 auto wagon
xb falcon 250 log auto 4 door
xb falcon 200 log auto ute
xc gs project - had to sell :-(
xc gs 302 4 speed 4 door
xc gs 351 auto 4 door
zf fairlane 302 auto
zk fairlane 250 x flow carb auto
zl fairlane 250 x flow EFI auto
xg ute , BA falcon dedicated gas
xd, xf x 3 ,ea,eb,ef,au x 3,telstar tx5
falconhell74 is offline   Reply With Quote Multi-Quote with this Post
Old 03-08-2018, 07:06 PM   #3
Jack91
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
 
Jack91's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Ballarat
Posts: 2,110
Default Re: Falcons towing Falcons - Legalities

I looked into all this to tow a race car around. Basically you need 3+ tonne towing. The cheapest cars that have that are old range rovers and landrovers, otherwise new fourbies are mostly 3t or more towing. Even most 80 series cruisers (before 96 I think) only do 2500kg. Of course though if you have 3t towing on, say, a new ranger, I dont see how the GVM would manage to come in under 4.5t with a loaded car, needing a truck license.
So yeah, I bought an F350.
Jack91 is offline   Reply With Quote Multi-Quote with this Post
2 users like this post:
Old 03-08-2018, 07:07 PM   #4
Jack91
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
 
Jack91's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Ballarat
Posts: 2,110
Default Re: Falcons towing Falcons - Legalities

Your other option is a gypsy trailer, but they look a bit shonky and if its for a race car etc, if you crash at the track, youre boned.
Jack91 is offline   Reply With Quote Multi-Quote with this Post
Old 03-08-2018, 07:32 PM   #5
pcman
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,881
Default Re: Falcons towing Falcons - Legalities

i have towed a bf wagon behind my ba sedan 200km trip, no issues, 500kg tare trailer 1700kg car, so just legal on a 2300kg towbar, trailer has electric brakes so still towed and stopped fine, in saying this on a regular basis i wouldn't recommend it
pcman is offline   Reply With Quote Multi-Quote with this Post
This user likes this post:
Old 03-08-2018, 07:58 PM   #6
Blue Roo
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 573
Default Re: Falcons towing Falcons - Legalities

I have towed 2 tonnes braked, behind my FG F6 Ute for 400 km and never had a problem.
Blue Roo is offline   Reply With Quote Multi-Quote with this Post
Old 03-08-2018, 08:14 PM   #7
Warrenk
Regular Member
 
Warrenk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 450
Default Re: Falcons towing Falcons - Legalities

Quote:
Originally Posted by pcman View Post
i have towed a bf wagon behind my ba sedan 200km trip, no issues, 500kg tare trailer 1700kg car, so just legal on a 2300kg towbar, trailer has electric brakes so still towed and stopped fine, in saying this on a regular basis i wouldn't recommend it
That overall weight might be legal for towing behind the Falcon, but I bet the car trailer had only ATM of 2000kg which would have made overall combination illegal


Warren
__________________
Never argue with an idiot, they will bring you down to their level and beat with experience every time.
Warrenk is online now   Reply With Quote Multi-Quote with this Post
Old 03-08-2018, 08:20 PM   #8
prydey
Rob
 
prydey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Woodcroft S.A.
Posts: 21,223
Default Re: Falcons towing Falcons - Legalities

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack91 View Post
Of course though if you have 3t towing on, say, a new ranger, I dont see how the GVM would manage to come in under 4.5t with a loaded car, needing a truck license.
not quite. The GVM is the rating for the max weight of the tow vehicle, not the total combined weight. a car licence is fine, using a Ranger towing 3t.
prydey is online now   Reply With Quote Multi-Quote with this Post
2 users like this post:
Old 03-08-2018, 08:34 PM   #9
prydey
Rob
 
prydey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Woodcroft S.A.
Posts: 21,223
Default Re: Falcons towing Falcons - Legalities

Quote:
Originally Posted by zlcrazy View Post
Some of these tow cars are only fitted with 1600kg tow bars. Even if they were fitted with the 2300kg tow bars surely they still are overloaded.

Surely this is illegal and quite dangerous.
something people may not be aware of is that the manufacturers also specify maximum axle loads as well as maximum overall weights for the cars. If you are just on your own in the car towing a car on a car trailer, you are unlikely to be over the max overall weight (GVM) for the tow car, but depending on the ball weight on the trailer, you could be getting pretty close to the max rear axle load, esp if you have a bit of extra gear in the boot.

its unlikely, but just thought i'd mention it as many people think as long as its within the rated tow capacity, all is dandy.

when towing you have to keep in mind the weight of the trailer on the ball (tow ball mass) becomes part of the car's payload and that you don't exceed the GVM rating or axle weights. you also have to make sure the tow ball mass is below the max rating of the tow bar, the towed mass is below the max rating of the tow vehicle and the trailer weight is within the trailers max load rating (ATM).
prydey is online now   Reply With Quote Multi-Quote with this Post
Old 03-08-2018, 09:14 PM   #10
Ben73
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
 
Ben73's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: NSW
Posts: 4,333
Default Re: Falcons towing Falcons - Legalities

Falcon towing Falcon? That's nothing. Although it made me think of this picture.
I'd always make sure the tow car can handle the job. It's not worth the risk






Ben73 is online now   Reply With Quote Multi-Quote with this Post
Old 03-08-2018, 09:24 PM   #11
stock1991
Limited supply
 
stock1991's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 1,441
Default Re: Falcons towing Falcons - Legalities

wow, I would describe that as unceremoniously unloaded
stock1991 is offline   Reply With Quote Multi-Quote with this Post
This user likes this post:
Old 03-08-2018, 09:24 PM   #12
jstanovic
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Perth
Posts: 803
Default Re: Falcons towing Falcons - Legalities

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack91 View Post
I looked into all this to tow a race car around. Basically you need 3+ tonne towing. The cheapest cars that have that are old range rovers and landrovers, otherwise new fourbies are mostly 3t or more towing. Even most 80 series cruisers (before 96 I think) only do 2500kg. Of course though if you have 3t towing on, say, a new ranger, I dont see how the GVM would manage to come in under 4.5t with a loaded car, needing a truck license.
So yeah, I bought an F350.
Not quite.

The 4.5t GVM (gross vehicle mass) only refers to the max weight of a vehicle you can drive on a standard drivers licence. Over 4.5t requires a truck licence.

GCM (gross combination mass) refers to the max weight of car and trailer. Ranger has a 6t GCM so if the Ranger weighs 3t (including fuel, passengers, Bull bar etc) it can legally tow 3t.
jstanovic is offline   Reply With Quote Multi-Quote with this Post
Old 03-08-2018, 09:37 PM   #13
prydey
Rob
 
prydey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Woodcroft S.A.
Posts: 21,223
Default Re: Falcons towing Falcons - Legalities

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben73 View Post
Falcon towing Falcon? That's nothing. Although it made me think of this picture.
I'd always make sure the tow car can handle the job. It's not worth the risk


image

image

image
given the lack of 'sag' in the tow car rear end, they either have very little tow ball mass, which is a recipe for disaster when towing something that heavy, or they are using a weight distribution hitch with way too much tension, which is also a recipe for disaster. never mind the fact that its comprehensively overweight.
prydey is online now   Reply With Quote Multi-Quote with this Post
Old 03-08-2018, 09:38 PM   #14
prydey
Rob
 
prydey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Woodcroft S.A.
Posts: 21,223
Default Re: Falcons towing Falcons - Legalities

Quote:
Originally Posted by jstanovic View Post
GCM (gross combination mass) refers to the max weight of car and trailer. Ranger has a 6t GCM so if the Ranger weighs 3t (including fuel, passengers, Bull bar, towball mass etc) it can legally tow 3t.
added the bold bit
prydey is online now   Reply With Quote Multi-Quote with this Post
This user likes this post:
Old 03-08-2018, 09:52 PM   #15
arronm
BA/F6 BF/F6 SSV/R TTG
 
arronm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Perth
Posts: 7,256
Default Re: Falcons towing Falcons - Legalities

I would tow that landcruiser with my territory , but not with that old falcon with crap brakes and skinny tyres.. I have scales for setting up ball weight.

Its all good until you need to STOP...
__________________
BA BF FPV starter button repairs. PM me.


Nizpro equipped and Tuned by the BEST in the west
Xtreme Ford Tuning

479RwKw Fuel limited, more pumps and power too come.

F6#0507 & #0639 Pro racer and Tech expert

NIZPRO modifying falcons like Premcar can only dream of , see VIDEO below.
https://youtu.be/oa4IfguGQ-A
arronm is offline   Reply With Quote Multi-Quote with this Post
This user likes this post:
Old 03-08-2018, 10:00 PM   #16
prydey
Rob
 
prydey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Woodcroft S.A.
Posts: 21,223
Default Re: Falcons towing Falcons - Legalities

Quote:
Originally Posted by arronm View Post
Its all good until you need to STOP...
or turn a corner on a wet road. that pic looks like there would be very little resistance to lateral loads on the rear axle.
prydey is online now   Reply With Quote Multi-Quote with this Post
2 users like this post:
Old 03-08-2018, 10:30 PM   #17
arronm
BA/F6 BF/F6 SSV/R TTG
 
arronm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Perth
Posts: 7,256
Default Re: Falcons towing Falcons - Legalities

Yep, definitely need to tow with 4wd or AWD..
__________________
BA BF FPV starter button repairs. PM me.


Nizpro equipped and Tuned by the BEST in the west
Xtreme Ford Tuning

479RwKw Fuel limited, more pumps and power too come.

F6#0507 & #0639 Pro racer and Tech expert

NIZPRO modifying falcons like Premcar can only dream of , see VIDEO below.
https://youtu.be/oa4IfguGQ-A
arronm is offline   Reply With Quote Multi-Quote with this Post
Old 04-08-2018, 07:52 AM   #18
Sox
RIP...
 
Sox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 15,524
Community Builder: In recognition of those who have helped build the AFF community. - Issue reason: As recommended by Ropcher. Personifies the spirit of AFF. 
Default Re: Falcons towing Falcons - Legalities

Quote:
Originally Posted by zlcrazy View Post
Hi all

As the headline reads I am curious about such sights.

I regularly see Falcons (An Commodores) towing similar weighted vehicles on car trailers. Some of these tow cars are only fitted with 1600kg tow bars. Even if they were fitted with the 2300kg tow bars surely they still are overloaded.

Surely this is illegal and quite dangerous.

So what are peoples thoughts on this here? I ask as I was considering buying an AU Falcon/Fairmont for such use but don't want to break the law.

Any input must appreciated :-)

It can be done without too much problem, but it needs to be setup well.

I generally tow with an RTV'd AU ute.
It has the 2300kg hitch, with a 4500kg tongue, and a WDH.
I also use an AU XR8 wagon now and again also with the 2300 hitch and WDH.

The ute is more stable than the wagon, but the wagon is still fine.



__________________
.
Oval Everywhere...
Sox is offline   Reply With Quote Multi-Quote with this Post
3 users like this post:
Old 04-08-2018, 09:18 AM   #19
Tassie f100
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,849
Default Re: Falcons towing Falcons - Legalities

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben73 View Post
Falcon towing Falcon? That's nothing. Although it made me think of this picture.
I'd always make sure the tow car can handle the job. It's not worth the risk


image

image

image
Yeah,if the Landcruiser in photo 1 had been loaded 30-40 cms further forward on the trailer,to give a bit of ball weight,photo,s 2&3 would not have been taken
Tassie f100 is online now   Reply With Quote Multi-Quote with this Post
Old 04-08-2018, 09:53 AM   #20
uterass
Starter Motor
 
Join Date: May 2018
Posts: 10
Default Re: Falcons towing Falcons - Legalities

I do a lot of towing using 2000 v6 ford explorer with a home built heavy duty braked trailer. No crap the exploder is the ugliest thing i own but the best tow vehicle ever.
uterass is offline   Reply With Quote Multi-Quote with this Post
Old 04-08-2018, 11:26 AM   #21
Swordie
Regular Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 447
Default Re: Falcons towing Falcons - Legalities

It's a good question on towing capability of the falcon. I have been comparing FG Falcon Ute to a diesel 4x4 Hilux 7th generation for a friend. Falcons seem quite capable. The Hilux does 2500 braked where as Falcon does 2300kg.

The car will need to tow a trailer up to 5 day a week for many country kilometres. The Falcon is been considered as it can potentially provide the same towing capability for ball park half the cost. There are factors to consider such as reliability. The preference is for 4x4.
Swordie is online now   Reply With Quote Multi-Quote with this Post
Old 04-08-2018, 11:37 AM   #22
roKWiz
Cabover nut
 
roKWiz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Onsite Eastcoast
Posts: 10,575
Default Re: Falcons towing Falcons - Legalities

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben73 View Post
Falcon towing Falcon? That's nothing. Although it made me think of this picture.
I'd always make sure the tow car can handle the job. It's not worth the risk
Curious how you found the sequence of pictures ?
Was it from another post/forum, were you involved in the towing or was it a passing vehicle which you later came upon the wreckage.

I don't know the story.
__________________
heritagestonemason.com/Fordlouisvillerestoration
In order that the labour of centuries past may not be in vain during the centuries to come...... D. Diderot 1752

roKWiz is offline   Reply With Quote Multi-Quote with this Post
Old 04-08-2018, 03:13 PM   #23
Warrenk
Regular Member
 
Warrenk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 450
Default Re: Falcons towing Falcons - Legalities

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sox View Post
It can be done without too much problem, but it needs to be setup well.

I generally tow with an RTV'd AU ute.
It has the 2300kg hitch, with a 4500kg tongue, and a WDH.
I also use an AU XR8 wagon now and again also with the 2300 hitch and WDH.

The ute is more stable than the wagon, but the wagon is still fine.


image
image
Again the question, what is the ATM of the trailer? If it 2000kg the setup shown in the pictures will be illegal as the car and trailer probably weighs 2.3 - 2.4 t. The mag wheels on the trailer also look like falcon mags. If they are check to see if the load rating is adequate.

Warren
__________________
Never argue with an idiot, they will bring you down to their level and beat with experience every time.
Warrenk is online now   Reply With Quote Multi-Quote with this Post
Old 04-08-2018, 04:27 PM   #24
arronm
BA/F6 BF/F6 SSV/R TTG
 
arronm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Perth
Posts: 7,256
Default Re: Falcons towing Falcons - Legalities

Yes , you are correct in what you are saying, but with good setup, well maintained equipment and safe driving , 99% of the time its fine.
__________________
BA BF FPV starter button repairs. PM me.


Nizpro equipped and Tuned by the BEST in the west
Xtreme Ford Tuning

479RwKw Fuel limited, more pumps and power too come.

F6#0507 & #0639 Pro racer and Tech expert

NIZPRO modifying falcons like Premcar can only dream of , see VIDEO below.
https://youtu.be/oa4IfguGQ-A
arronm is offline   Reply With Quote Multi-Quote with this Post
This user likes this post:
Old 04-08-2018, 05:27 PM   #25
Sox
RIP...
 
Sox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 15,524
Community Builder: In recognition of those who have helped build the AFF community. - Issue reason: As recommended by Ropcher. Personifies the spirit of AFF. 
Default Re: Falcons towing Falcons - Legalities

Quote:
Originally Posted by Warrenk View Post
Again the question, what is the ATM of the trailer? If it 2000kg the setup shown in the pictures will be illegal as the car and trailer probably weighs 2.3 - 2.4 t. The mag wheels on the trailer also look like falcon mags. If they are check to see if the load rating is adequate.

Warren
The trailer with the Fairlane on top is mine which I built earlier in the year, the one with the XR8 on top is a rental.

My trailers ATM is 2700kg.
The wheels are indeed Falcon rims, 1 ton Falcon rims, I can't remember the exact rating but it's somewhere around 900kg each.
Tyres are also an extra load 215/60/16, from memory 775kg each.

It's the most stable trailer I've ever used, if I blow my own trumpet...
__________________
.
Oval Everywhere...
Sox is offline   Reply With Quote Multi-Quote with this Post
8 users like this post:
Old 04-08-2018, 06:07 PM   #26
93EB_SXR6
I totalled my XR6
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,194
Default Re: Falcons towing Falcons - Legalities

Looks like a pretty good trailer to me.
__________________
93EB_SXR6 is offline   Reply With Quote Multi-Quote with this Post
This user likes this post:
Old 04-08-2018, 06:53 PM   #27
Jastel
Donating Member
Donating Member1
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,430
Technical Contributor: For members who share their technical expertise. - Issue reason: Has much experience with taxis and always jumps on here to explain things simply and help out the new guys in B-series and Contemporary... 
Default Re: Falcons towing Falcons - Legalities

Check your local state regulations...they are all different.
Also check your insurance policy.

I have found that unless you own a complying heavy duty braked trailer and use it often it is cheaper to use a tilt tray. Nobody in my town hires a trailer to legally hold a 1800kg Falcon. They do hire "car trailers" but.
Jastel is offline   Reply With Quote Multi-Quote with this Post
2 users like this post:
Old 04-08-2018, 07:00 PM   #28
pcman
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,881
Default Re: Falcons towing Falcons - Legalities

Quote:
Originally Posted by Warrenk View Post
That overall weight might be legal for towing behind the Falcon, but I bet the car trailer had only ATM of 2000kg which would have made overall combination illegal


Warren
nope trailer is legal for 2800kg
pcman is offline   Reply With Quote Multi-Quote with this Post
2 users like this post:
Old 04-08-2018, 10:12 PM   #29
Gothefalcon
FAWD - No Boundaries
Donating Member3
 
Gothefalcon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Adelaide
Posts: 8,129
Community Builder: In recognition of those who have helped build the AFF community. - Issue reason: He takes long trips in his AWD Falcon & where ever he goes he sets out to meet forum members at various destinations. He does this without expectation of any sort. I have had the pleasure of spending time with Dhru on two of his separate trips and his gre Technical Contributor: For members who share their technical expertise. - Issue reason: The excellent write ups in your BF AWD Falcon Wagon thread 
Default Re: Falcons towing Falcons - Legalities

Ford say to enable the Falcon's tow capacity to be lifted to 2300kg... you need the combination of the heavy duty towbar AND a weight distributing hitch. (a suitably braked trailer is also required)
A Falcon fitted with only a heavy duty towbar (no WDH), is only rated at a 1600kg tow capacity.

So even if your State authority may not mention the need for a WDH... technically, if you tow between 1600 & 2300kg without a WDH (& suitable trailer), you are exceeding the manufacturer's stated ratings... and could fall foul of the law (if noticed) and/or your insurance cover (if called upon).

A WDH (correctly fitted) helps to ensure that the total ball weight is not exceeded. I personally don't use a WDH, but have large air bags fitted on the rear leaves of my wagon (as part of a self levelling rear suspension set-up), which performs the same task (& my insurance co is happy with that)

Either way... you also need to make sure that the weight on the trailer is distributed correctly (too far forward = too much weight on the ball... too far back = not enough)

I've towed plenty of cars behind many Falcons, safely and legally, over many years... but to do it, there's a bit more to it than just throwing a car trailer on your towbar, and a car up on the trailer.

D
__________________
View My Build thread


22 DJR Shell V-Power Mustang Eskymobile (my first EV)
07 BF2 AWD Falcon Wagon (Daily driver)
04 BA Falcon 1Tonner Ute (New Project)
03 BA Falcon Wagon (Spare)
98 NL Fairlane Ghia V8 (Weekend cruiser)
70 VG paddock racer (Cain it til it breaks.. fix it.. Cain it all over again !)
Gothefalcon is offline   Reply With Quote Multi-Quote with this Post
This user likes this post:
Old 04-08-2018, 10:27 PM   #30
prydey
Rob
 
prydey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Woodcroft S.A.
Posts: 21,223
Default Re: Falcons towing Falcons - Legalities

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gothefalcon View Post
A WDH (correctly fitted) helps to ensure that the total ball weight is not exceeded.
a WDH has no effect on tow ball mass. it simply redistributes some of the weight from being supported by the rear axle, on to the front axle (and a small amount back to the trailer axle). static tow ball mass remains.

it is also critical to only restore a MAX of 100% of the lost front axle load, with many manufacturers now recommending 50%.
prydey is online now   Reply With Quote Multi-Quote with this Post
This user likes this post:
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +11. The time now is 11:34 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Other than what is legally copyrighted by the respective owners, this site is copyright www.fordforums.com.au
Positive SSL