I6 Cam Upgrade!

Stattic · 27-04-2009, 01:13 AM

so! soon ill have a few thousand in my pocket and im looking at getting a performance cam

what can i expect from an AU 6? how lumpy can they go whilst remaining practical and still make good power? also what sort of cam should i go for, keeping in mind i will probably be getting a 3000rpm stall converter depending on what insurance says lol

eager to hear what some of you guys have to say, i need advice cuz i dont know that much about this stuff
thanks guys

LG · 27-04-2009, 04:05 PM

People have gone for the JMM cams. A couple have thrown in a Crow cam.

A DEV4 will idle in your car, although supposably to get the most out of it, you need the matching head. Other people have also put in the DEV5, it will run but expect issues with idling.

On a side note, the XR cam, which can picked up for cheap, is good for 140 - 150rwkws.

If you look for going a stall, I would say to avoid the XR cam, and just go for the high end cams.

I think roughly:
XR Cam + Exhaust ~125rwkw
XR Cam + Exhaust + Tune ~140rwkw
JMM Cam + Exhaust ~135rwkw
JMM Cam + Exhaust + Tune ~145rwkw

Remember if you go the larger cams to upgrade your valve springs, and vernier cam gear.

If I were you, I would look at the JMM Dev3Hl, Streetfighter cam or XR Cam. This way you'll have money to do a tune and maybe a couple of other little things.

Cheers

Stattic · 27-04-2009, 04:35 PM

ive heard a few bad thing about JMM recently, one of them being a story about a dodgy cam
im also told they are very overpriced on everything they offer so i am more inclined to go for maybe some sort of crow cam and get the cam/tune done at a different performance place
can you explain more about the matching head for the dev4 cam? i remember when speaking to JMM a little while ago they told me that the AU1 head was significantly better than series 2 and 3 and could flow up to about 160rwkw whereas they recommend head changes i think above 145rwkw on other cars
has anyone heard anything like that? i suppose changing the heads would be another costly exercise
also will an aftermarket cam be good throughout the rev range? for example if i get a cam with low down torque am i going to lose top end or just not gain any there? i think going for a stall and a high end cam is probably the best bet but as i said, insurance plays a big part
do you think a dev3 cam would be noticeable in the car as in alteration of the sound and feel with no regard to the power difference? i want something that gives me power but FEELS like its got a good cam

LG · 27-04-2009, 04:50 PM

Firstly, do you have a VCT engine?

And i'm guessing you have an automatic? Correct?

Don't expect quality service from JMM. You go there for their products, not their service. Although they did treat me nicely and helped me out.

They are on the pricey side, but they have done many years of research to get their packages to work together. And their products are some of the best, i.e. Autolite plugs.

For the amount of money you want to spend, you aren't going to be changing your head. And if you do want to spend the money to change your head, you are at most going to achieve at most 20rwkw for double the price.

As I said before, you obviously want a cam that shakes the car a bit, but doesn't jump up and down idling like a dog.

Go for the JMM Dev3hl, which suits the stock head, or if you want to go one higher to the Streetfighter or Dev4, go for it, because a few people have, and have still gained power on their stock head.

I would stay away from the XR6 HP cam, because it will improve your power, but it will hardly affect the sound of your engine, and will not give that cam type sense feeling.

Crow cams, offer some decent shafts. There are also Wade cams. I know of others running a crow cam, which took a while to get the power out of, but that was mainly due to the tune and chip he was running.

Again, with your Paccies, exhaust, and current generic tune, you would be averaging about 115rwkw. Add a JMM cam, you will be up around the 125rwkw, same with Crow. Add the custom tune and you will range about 135rwkw.

At most, and I mean at most, you will only get about 140rwkw from a streetable auto I6 with a cam setup.

Other gains can be made in your intake, and general servicing. Which i would recommend, as I don't think you would have changed your plugs or leads?

If you want to go higher to 150rwkw, you need to start looking at a manual conversion for a lower loss through the drivetrain.

Or, like JMM say, if you want higher than 150rwkw, you need to start looking at the bigger cams, and matching ported heads (which JMM offer), which means double the money. And then you can only get to 165rwkw, on a manual with a custom tune. But we're talking big bucks, unless you can do it all yourself and find 2nd hand parts.

Insurance wise, they would never know if you run a XR6 HP cam, unless they pull your engine apart and look at the part #s. I would also like to think you could get away with a Dev3HL or similar Crow. Anything higher than that, any car intelligent person will know you are running a high lift cam.

Whereabouts are you located, and I'll offer some suggestions of places?

And if it's power your after, your sound system wouldn't be doing you any favours.

Stattic · 27-04-2009, 05:09 PM

well strangely enough i dont have the VCT engine or even the HP engine... its just a standard I6. i dont know if its been put in at a later date or what but its a very very clean engine in very good condition. not a SINGLE drop of oil ANYWHERE on the engine, drives and responds so very very well so maybe the previous owner killed the vct and put in a low km engine.

how much of a difference would there be between the dev3 and dev4 cam? power and price wise. i like the sound of getting away with a dev3 cam. do insurance places pull apart your engine and stuff when they look over the cars so they can find things to excuse themselves from paying you?
i live in werribee so preferably somewhere western suburbs. ive been told good things about G and D performance and i have spoken to glenn (i believe) and he seemed very informative, nice and helpful but they have been incredibly slack getting me a quote. ive called them up 3 times and messaged glenn but havent heard anything so i didnt bother pursuing them. my main concern was that they are known as good tuners.

also how badly would you expect economy to be affected on a dev3 or dev4 upgrade with a good tune?

Stattic · 27-04-2009, 05:09 PM

oh and whats wrong with the sound system lol

LG · 27-04-2009, 05:23 PM

lol, nothings wrong with the sound system, it's just robbing you of some speed.

Do you have IRS? Because if you do, I think you should have a VCT, anyway a standard I6, is probably better than a VCT, but a HP would have been nice to start with.

Insurance places, won't pull apart your engine, unless it's shaking like a dog's tail.

The best cam for you would be the dev3hl, and it is the same price as the dev4. Although JMM recommends you get a matching ported head for the dev4, but you can run it without. Other people have, and they have made similar power to dev3hl's. I would think that the dev4 has slightly more top end power, but less mid range.

G&D, are a great place for the tune. Same with Chris & Theo from Blue Power. Both stores, will install the cam & springs, if you decide to go with a 3rd party cam, and might end up being maybe $100 - $200 cheaper than JMM.

I would get the cam only from JMM, but don't get the tune from them. He will try and sell you his exhaust probably, but your current system is decent.

Economy, will drop by about 50kms probably more because you rev it out harder, depends where you are driving though. Highway, it will stay the same pretty much.

As I said before, I would recommend, doing all the little things aswell:
* New thermostat
* New coolant
* New oil & filter
* New plugs
* New leads
* New fuel filter

All these little things will help the tuner get more power, and it will also run better.

As I said, don't expect massive power, but with a Cam & Tune on your current setup, you should see about 130rwkw at minimum, and get you into the low to mid 15s.

That's just my opinon.

ayeyew · 27-04-2009, 05:33 PM

Where are you located?

I have a CMS Stg2 Cam, nearly completed custom tune. By the time it is completed i will have 145rwkw and around 350rwNm. It should be completed hopefully next week (was meant to be this week, but some stuff came up)

Those familiar with Joe's dyno (and other mainline dynos) will know that this will correspond to 160+ @ treads on dynodynamics dynos and that's not hearsay, that's backed up by back to back runs within 30 minutes of eachother, lol.. Mainline dynos run around 10% lower than dynodynamics dynos.

That's just exhaust, extractors, cam and tune, no head work..

I'd say wait for a couple weeks, then hopefully Joe will have the custom tune completed and hopefully a group buy can be organised for the forum or fordmods.

If your car is auto, his Stg2A could be the go, produce nearly identical power, but around 30-50rwNm more torque. That's the next thing i'm gonna do.

I'm gonna chuck in my tranny cooler, get his stg2A cam, put on my 68mm TB, complete the tuning and take it to the track and hopefully run mid-14's with full street trim, crappy *** tires and big *** sound system

Stattic · 27-04-2009, 05:33 PM

As I said before, I would recommend, doing all the little things aswell:
* New thermostat
* New coolant
* New oil & filter
* New plugs
* New leads
* New fuel filter

hmm ok well most of these things would be done if i got a service done to the car wouldnt they?
also would a high stall affect my tune? if i was to get a custom tune and cam and THEN get a high stall later (id only do this if funds were low)?
economy is not an issue... obviously i dont want to completely destroy the fuel economy but i am 90% sure i am going to get a cheap work run around on gas so im not going to be driving it every day

also do you think itd be better to get a JMM cam or an equivalent crow or wade cam?

The Monty · 27-04-2009, 05:34 PM

Why not go a surecam? Plenty of people run them, Stav, me , Stiddy, OED666, SPRjenkins, and more.
Mine is a fair whack of a cam, bigger than Stavs, .535 lift, 218@0.050 duration, running behind an auto. we are yet to sort it all out, but basically we are running out of fuel at 4900 due to fuel system (regulator, injectors and pump are all being done) being inadequate. Cam will happily let the car rev to 6500rpm.
Car has NEVER stalled, not since a tune anyway, didnt really drive it without a tune.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuDI0KyimBU

Thats a cold start in it, so thats as bad as the idle gets.

40-140 vid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJ7_6...eature=channel

Acceleration vid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiXMy...eature=channel

Car can still get over 600km to a tank if Im nice, and it has a bit of headwork done as well:
Porting, or moreso cleaning up the dags and smoothing everything out, plus a skim - $400
JMM valve springs, and valve spring retainers - $352
Cam (billet, not a regrind)- $499
Headgasket kit - $105
Head bolts - $60

We done all the work ourselves, so didnt pay any labour, but add in maybe $600 for a tune. And you have a head and cam package for around - $2016 but you will need a decent converter as well, so another $1000 but for a mod youll be doing anyway.

Stattic · 27-04-2009, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ayeyew

Where are you located?

I have a CMS Stg2 Cam, nearly completed custom tune. By the time it is completed i will have 145rwkw and around 350rwNm. It should be completed hopefully next week (was meant to be this week, but some stuff came up)

Those familiar with Joe's dyno (and other mainline dynos) will know that this will correspond to 160+ @ treads on dynodynamics dynos and that's not hearsay, that's backed up by back to back runs within 30 minutes of eachother, lol.. Mainline dynos run around 10% lower than dynodynamics dynos.

That's just exhaust, extractors, cam and tune, no head work..

I'd say wait for a couple weeks, then hopefully Joe will have the custom tune completed and hopefully a group buy can be organised for the forum or fordmods.

If your car is auto, his Stg2A could be the go, produce nearly identical power, but around 30-50rwNm more torque. That's the next thing i'm gonna do.

theyre some nice figures for the aforementioned mods, id probably be aiming for something roughly around that area
what did you pay for your cam/tune? my car is auto and im located in werribee (western suburbs of melbourne)

The Monty · 27-04-2009, 05:36 PM

The stall wont affect your tune much, just ask them to raise where LHM kicks in, raise it from 3000, to like 4000 or higher depending on your stall converter.

Stattic · 27-04-2009, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Monty

Why not go a surecam? Plenty of people run them, Stav, me , Stiddy, OED666, SPRjenkins, and more.
Mine is a fair whack of a cam, bigger than Stavs, .535 lift, 218@0.050 duration, running behind an auto. we are yet to sort it all out, but basically we are running out of fuel at 4900 due to fuel system (regulator, injectors and pump are all being done) being inadequate. Cam will happily let the car rev to 6500rpm.
Car has NEVER stalled, not since a tune anyway, didnt really drive it without a tune.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuDI0KyimBU

Thats a cold start in it, so thats as bad as the idle gets.

40-140 vid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJ7_6...eature=channel

Acceleration vid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiXMy...eature=channel

Car can still get over 600km to a tank if Im nice, and it has a bit of headwork done as well:
Porting, or moreso cleaning up the dags and smoothing everything out, plus a skim - $400
JMM valve springs, and valve spring retainers - $352
Cam (billet, not a regrind)- $499
Headgasket kit - $105
Head bolts - $60

We done all the work ourselves, so didnt pay any labour, but add in maybe $600 for a tune. And you have a head and cam package for around - $2016 but you will need a decent converter as well, so another $1000 but for a mod youll be doing anyway.

the sound of that thing is awesome! is the engine going to shake badly enough for insurance to want to open up the engine? perhaps something a bit smaller than that would be better? do you think your cam is the main thing sucking the juice out of the car or have you done something else thats maxing out your injectors and pump?

ayeyew · 27-04-2009, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stattic

theyre some nice figures for the aforementioned mods, id probably be aiming for something roughly around that area
what did you pay for your cam/tune? my car is auto and im located in werribee (western suburbs of melbourne)

Well, my car is basically the r&d car for the cam, lol.. So no payment as of yet. Not sure how much he will be charging for the cam & tune once completed tho.
The stg2A cam, when tuned correctly

idles perfectly, sounds like stock (one guy had one on an EF and he took it out cuz he wanted the put, put, put sound and this cam sounds stock, lol) atm seems a little lacking down low (that's to be expected from a cam upgrade tho), once it is past about 50km/h or so.. it's pretty blardy quick.. scares the crap out of the mrs, lol..

I posted some videos of the cam in my car prior to tuning, it since runs a lot smoother and a lot stronger.

To give you an idea, one guy i know was pulling 142 on Joes dyno and he went to a fordmods dyno day a couple of years back and he came 2nd in the 6cyl NA with 161.5

I'm currently pulling 141

Monty - i like your vids! Sounds nice

Stattic · 27-04-2009, 05:48 PM

i dont want something that sounds stock, i want something that sounds angry but not too angry lol
ill ring around with a few insurance places and if its not gonna kill me ill put it on the policy and go for something really crazy but if not i will go for something like the described dev3 that i can hear but get away with

Stattic · 27-04-2009, 05:50 PM

also do you guys honestly think my audio set up is robbing my system of power? does it run off the engine when the car is on? if so i think its probably using maybe 2kw peak lol

The Monty · 27-04-2009, 05:54 PM

You just have to ask 8lueoval, blackers10, wadsymoo, debzilla108, or anyone else up herer who get sout on Thursday or Friday nights what it idles like, lol. Ive been told it sounds a cross between a tractor/rotary/boat.

The Monty · 27-04-2009, 05:59 PM

Ive also heard the DEV4 cam is not bad, and the XR6hp cam and a stock head hold the NA record for 1/4 mile. Also of course ayeyew's cam package seems awesome as well. At least there is a choice for us these days.

ayeyew · 27-04-2009, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Monty

Ive been told it sounds a cross between a tractor/rotary/boat.

ROFLMAO

that's gold

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stattic

also do you guys honestly think my audio set up is robbing my system of power? does it run off the engine when the car is on? if so i think its probably using maybe 2kw peak lol

I think the bigger concern would be the weight of the soundsystem regarding 1/4 mile times, but if it's only 30-40kg or so, i mean that much variance is seen within the weights of the different drivers anyway

My subs and box are pretty blardy heavy, plus the dynamatting, sheesh..

Only account for less than 0.1 down the 1/4 tho i'd imagine

Stattic · 27-04-2009, 06:16 PM

ohhh nahh my sound set up weighs nothing! my biggest concern would be the 17" tickford spare tyre lol
im using 2x10s in a specially made box which is pretty light

LG · 27-04-2009, 09:37 PM

Surecam's are a great cam, just much harder to get a hold of one. And then your mixing and matching parts hoping for the best. Which most of the time you will make decent power.

But as Monty says, he's had his head ported to match.

It's all up to you mate. If you get a mild cam, you will get the idle, you will get the sound. And half the sound is made from your exhaust, not the cam.

As for the little things, I more meant put in some decent parts:
i.e. BPT thermostat, for lower coolant temps, and NGK plugs or Autolite plugs.
Something decent and reliable.

I suppose 10" subs don't weigh all that much. But not having it in, will feel like an extra 2-4 kw. And by the time you upgrade to larger wheels, and bling with your bodykit, you end up adding a lot of weight on.

Those surecam videos.. bloody hell that thing moves quick from 70km/h onwards! (edit: although he does start from 3-4000 rpm).

Goodluck with it!

Stattic · 27-04-2009, 09:51 PM

ok a few things... ive already got the te50 bodykit so theres gonna be no messing around there, no more extra weight or drag than what i already have
im using the tickford 17s because they look AWESOME on my car and i love them and i cant see a point hampering my acceleration with big wheels that look silly
so there should be no extra weight
when i take the car out to get a timeslip when i get around to it i will take the spare tyre out of the boot (its a 17 inch tickford full size lol) and disconnect the subs. theyre justr bracketed on and i can reconnect the wires myself

so are you saying if i get better plugs and leads i might get a slight difference in performance? i have no idea how old mine are atm anyways so anything would probably make a difference to economy and all that

LG · 27-04-2009, 10:16 PM

Don't worry, I was being a bit drastic on the weight. I'm just stating that if it's performance your after, the extra weight will hold you back a little. And then if you are at the drags to go fast, you just take it out.

Yes they will make a very small slight difference in performance. They normally have a life of about 100-150,000 kms. And the better spark plug you have in there, the better the detonation you have. The cleaner the fuel you have, from your fuel filter, the more power you will make. The cooler your temperatures are, the better the computer will run. The better the oil is running in your engine, the better the parts will move.

Cheers

Stattic · 27-04-2009, 10:37 PM

yeh i wanna get a full service but my parents keep discouraging me by saying "its working so dont fiddle with it!"
my dad changed his plugs and leads and they were absolutely disgusting... he got another 50km per tank on gas after he put new ones on

51OAU · 28-04-2009, 12:19 AM

mate i will be running a custom grind surecam in my au3 very soon with stock head. If u want wait around and ill let u know how i go. Im also running. 2.5 mendral bent exhaust with hi flow cat 1 muffler 1 resignator, set of pacemaker extractors. 68mm throttle body. new Valve springs and retainers, new lifters, 8mm spark plug leads. Fully custom made Cold Air Induction. 3.9 diff gears and a lsd. Im hoping to pull more then 230hp (170kw) atw but im running a manual not a auto. If u wanna look at my car its HERE

Stattic · 28-04-2009, 01:19 AM

interesting, what sort of difference is a larger throttle body going to make with that sort of work done, if any? did you get any results to compare it with your set up before you used it or is it a mod you expect to give you results when you do a bit more work?

ayeyew · 28-04-2009, 02:41 PM

A guy on the fordmods forum did back to back runs on his E-series (not a stocko) and he gained 9kw @ rear wheels from the 68mm TB (over stock TB), power graph was pretty much identical until 4500+rpm iirc. The stock one tapered off, but the 68mm one kept going.

I think it would more depend on the amount of work done to your car whether or not you will benefit from the larger TB. I have a 68mm TB sitting in my garage

Probably chuck it on in a couple of months

Stattic · 28-04-2009, 02:44 PM

yeh but what i want to know is how much work do you need done to get a benefit lol... im tipping much more than what we have

ayeyew · 28-04-2009, 02:53 PM

I'm not too sure

his before was 143

After was 152

That was on the same dyno that i use. I'm currently sitting at 141, hopefully be 145 on Saturday

I'm pretty sure he said that was without a tune also, just replaced the TB and then had a run, although i doubt our AU's would like that much

LG · 28-04-2009, 03:39 PM

The two runs were months apart by the way, and only a difference close to 5000 rpm was seen.

Only once you are up near 150+, should you think about TB if you have the cash to splash.