Diesel Particulate Filter Problems

Rodge · 21-09-2012, 01:32 PM

How are we getting on with this people ? Who's had problems with their DPF in their diesel vehicle ?

Seems many manufacturers are now writing DPF's out of warranties, (from what I hear), and calling them consummable items...an interesting approach when some manfacturers are charging upwards of $5,000 for a replacement DPF from what I hear.

Internet is riddled with stories of DPF problems, just google DPF problems and it appears virtually all the manufacturers are stuggling with this filter blockage / clogging issue.

I wonder if salesmen these days are even bothering to tell customers that they need to take their vehicle for a good hot run at least once a week on the motorway to achieve the required exhaust temperatures to effect a proper regeneration cycle so as to ensure the soot in the DPF is burned off properly. Do manufacturers care that DPF problems can lead to serious unburned diesel fuel ingress into the engine's sump or have they taken the dipstick away from the engine like one manufacturer has that I know of so that people don't know about the fuel ingress into the sump and don't see the oil level going up on the dipstick.

Has much changed since the dramatic problems we had with our diesel vehicle back in 2007 ? All I can see is manufacturers running for cover on this issue, or worse still, burying their head in the sand and and pretending there isn't a problem.

csv8 · 21-09-2012, 01:42 PM

Didn't Benz and Peugot fix this with a blue urea additive ??????

GTP-RPD · 21-09-2012, 01:47 PM

Got a diesel captiva for work and it came on once when i got it, took it for a good thrash (keep it over 50km/h) till the light goes off. The Holden service Manager said city driving kills them so dont drive it slow and keep the rpm's up especially around town. I can say that I have happily obliged and in 25000k's have not had it come on again..

Rodge · 21-09-2012, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Didn't Benz and Peugot fix this with a blue urea additive ??????

Good question, its claimed to be the state-of-the-art catalyst sytem that supposed to be more effective, but how would you know when Mercedes-benz have removed the dipstcik from their diesel engines, (electronic oil level measurement) and removed the over-full sensor from the engines system.

As you can see, I don't trust them. Once bitten, twice shy.
Don't trust any manufacurer who doesn't fit a warning system on the dashboard when the DPF is becoming clogged. Drive at over 80 k.p.h. on the open road / motorway for at least 20 minutes or until the warning light goes out is the way to clear the DPF and warning light...but of course if there's no DPF warning light system to alert you that the filter is becoming full, you've got no way of knowing when to take it for a open road run, and that's where the problems start, in my experience.

Rodge · 21-09-2012, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTP-RPD

Got a diesel captiva for work and it came on once when i got it, took it for a good thrash (keep it over 50km/h) till the light goes off. The Holden service Manager said city driving kills them so dont drive it slow and keep the rpm's up especially around town. I can say that I have happily obliged and in 25000k's have not had it come on again..

Yeap... in over 200 hours of reasearch on this matter I learned a whole heap of info abotu this issue including
Short trips fill the DPF quickly
Low rev's, low engine load exacerbates the problem
One good open road trip per week is the minimum requirement to keep your DPF operating properly. If you don't do this, its better to create a trip of this type each week than to face the consequences if you don't.

dimka100 · 21-09-2012, 03:02 PM

Isn't Australian diesel fuel purity grade much lower than what they use in Europe? I though this was the main reason why some of the absolute latest diesel engines could not be sold here ...

Also European car are designed to be driven at higher highway speeds than what we have available to us here, so maybe less people are having such issues over there ...

TC200six · 21-09-2012, 05:04 PM

I wonder how many people are using the wrong oil in these cases of failure? Engines with DPFs require low ash oils and oil for older diesels are not suitable.

sgt_doofey · 21-09-2012, 05:15 PM

128,000kms and no problems in our Peugeot 307. Haven't even had to top up the additive yet. We live out in the sticks though.

Olbucko · 21-09-2012, 08:37 PM

Drive it for at least 20 minutes at least 80 kph, thats great advice for the average city driver, how do they manage that in todays city traffic? I think city drivers have been sold a pup. Their smart new diesel which saves them three or four dollars a week in fuel costs is going to cost them many thousands more in the end.
They would have been much better off keeping the Falcadore

Diesels are for trucks and highway vehicles

There are only two diesel cars sold without particulate filters, The Territory and some Toyotas, Hilux I think.

CAMS290 · 21-09-2012, 08:44 PM

New diesels are giving heaps of problems, Injectors being the main problem, often before 100,000k and costing more than $500 each, and HPCR (High Pressure Common Rail Pump) pumps are starting to show problems, if HPCR pumps are getting lazy it makes the injectors work harder to compensate.

These new hi tech diesels have no hope of doing 500,000 trouble free kays like the old 4.2 Nissans or Toyotas and other low stressed mechanical diesels.

These new ones have the potential to send you bankrupt.

sneaky · 21-09-2012, 09:09 PM

I have been wondering how my wife's car will go with this. We have a Hyundai IX35 diesel. For the last 12 months we have had to drive nearly an hour on the freeway to visit family once a week. Just this week we have moved to be within 5 minutes of family and shops and 2 minutes to kids school, and she works from home.

Guess I will take it to work once a fortnight for a decent run - 45 minutes on the highway.

Franco Cozzo · 21-09-2012, 09:10 PM

My diesel doesn't have a DPF, and if it did it would disappear.

Except its sitting at Ford because its ****ing out diesel from the top of the injectors.

Barnaby · 21-09-2012, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Damo

My diesel doesn't have a DPF, and if it did it would disappear.

They have sensors on them so the ECU can tell when they need the engine to fuel up and help burn them out. Unless you can fool the ECU, you cant just get rid of them.

SumoDog68 · 21-09-2012, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olbucko

Drive it for at least 20 minutes at least 80 kph, thats great advice for the average city driver, how do they manage that in todays city traffic? I think city drivers have been sold a pup. Their smart new diesel which saves them three or four dollars a week in fuel costs is going to cost them many thousands more in the end.
They would have been much better off keeping the Falcadore

Diesels are for trucks and highway vehicles

There are only two diesel cars sold without particulate filters, The Territory and some Toyotas, Hilux I think.

Navara 550 does not have DPF ...

smoo · 21-09-2012, 09:45 PM

My old work took on an Isuzu franchise for the last 18 months I was there, small and medium Isuzus run DPFs and I never saw one replaced.
The old man works at a Hyundai dealer and has dozens of horror stories on these over rated crap that some members on here wet themselves over.

b2tf · 21-09-2012, 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SumoDog68

Navara 550 does not have DPF ...

Think they do?

Threads like these are why I am sticking with petrol for my new 4WD, stuff the fuel costs its the stories like this about the Hilux death rattles from the injectors and the YD25's spitting out pumps left right and centre that put me right off.

ute83 · 21-09-2012, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olbucko

There are only two diesel cars sold without particulate filters, The Territory and some Toyotas, Hilux I think.

The Santa Fe R series do not have one either.

reece1 · 21-09-2012, 10:20 PM

Cars don't need this technology that doesn't work in the real world. The stuff in cars these days is a joke really.

Franco Cozzo · 21-09-2012, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barnaby

They have sensors on them so the ECU can tell when they need the engine to fuel up and help burn them out. Unless you can fool the ECU, you cant just get rid of them.

Thats right, particularily with DPF equipped Focus you send the ECU away and they remove the coding regarding the DPF, so it doesn't "regenerate" and doesn't know its not there.

Bossxr8 · 21-09-2012, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olbucko

Drive it for at least 20 minutes at least 80 kph, thats great advice for the average city driver, how do they manage that in todays city traffic? I think city drivers have been sold a pup. Their smart new diesel which saves them three or four dollars a week in fuel costs is going to cost them many thousands more in the end.
They would have been much better off keeping the Falcadore

Diesels are for trucks and highway vehicles

There are only two diesel cars sold without particulate filters, The Territory and some Toyotas, Hilux I think.

There are plenty of new TD cars that are sold without DPF's.

Green X · 21-09-2012, 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CAMS290

New diesels are giving heaps of problems, Injectors being the main problem, often before 100,000k and costing more than $500 each, and HPCR (High Pressure Common Rail Pump) pumps are starting to show problems, if HPCR pumps are getting lazy it makes the injectors work harder to compensate.

These new hi tech diesels have no hope of doing 500,000 trouble free kays like the old 4.2 Nissans or Toyotas and other low stressed mechanical diesels.

These new ones have the potential to send you bankrupt.

The thing is if you don’t use good fuel, and change fuel filters regularly you are going to have failures, one reason why earth moving machinery use multiple fuel filters that are changed like clockwork. Other issues would be mechanics who incorrectly diagnose faults.
Dirt and water is the death of any diesel injection system.

As for the DPF just ditch the thing over ya shoulder.

Windsor220 · 21-09-2012, 11:06 PM

A lot of people misdiagnose DPF problems. Very rarely do they require replacement.

Rodge · 22-09-2012, 12:18 PM

Well our DPF kept clogging up, which I didn't know about because there is no warning device on 2007 MBenz diesel's. The sensor in the DPF kept sending the ECU signals to do late stage fuel injection to trigger a regeneration, (burn-off cycle) but the exhaust never got hot enough to achieve this and all the late stage fuel injection resulted in heavy over-fuelling of the engine, and unburned fuel making its way down into the crankcase.

The oil level went UP at the rate of 1 litre on unburned diesel getting into the crankcase oil every 3,000 km's.

Naturally I had some interesting discussions with Mercedes-benz about this and no they did not play nice, I had to make it quite clear that my lawyers number was on my speed-dial.
I hear stories of diesel cars having their oil changed and the oil being changed-out being substaintially higher than the official rated crank-case capacity so this non-sense is still going on.

DPF's can generally be removed but yes the cars ECU needs to be re-programmed and it took M Benz 2 attempts to get it right. They took considerable convincing to agree to this proceedure.

What concerns me is that it appears that even many years after these dreadful filters were first fitted customers are still being sold vehicles and not being told of the DPF's operational requirements, either through ignorance on the part of salesman or worse, a deliberate concealment of important customer information.

Yes I agree its very, very hard for city residents to find the time and space to achieve 80 k.p.h. runs for 20 minutes or more. This could involve having to "create" lengthy motorway trips each week, late at night when the roads are relativly free of congestion, for no other purpose than just to allow for a proper burn-off of the DPF. This is hardly a satisfactory situation I would have thought and burns more fuel.

Mum's taking diesel vehicles on the short school / cafe / soccer / shopping runs are wide open to expensive highly problematic issues as are people who commute short distances. Be careful people, don't get caught with a vehicle that's not suitable for intended purpose.

Questions to ask the salesman...and don't stop asking until you are sure you've got the correct answer.

1. Does this vehicle come with a DPF ?
2. What warning device is fitted to the vehicle to warn the driver when the DPF is getting full ? Please show me where this is.
3. How do I go about achieving a good re-generation cycle for the DPF ?
4. Is the DPF covered in the manufacturers warranty ? Please show me the paperwork and specific clauses pertaining to warranty coverage of this item.
If the salesman, his manager or the dealer principal can't give you straight answers on this stuff and back it up by showing you the paperwork go somewhere else where the staff have had proper training.

What are the DPF exclusions ? The VW group for example I understand have a clause that gives them an out for driving patterns that are not condusive to healthy DPF operation...but do their salesman warn customers about this, or are they more fixated on their next commission cheque ?

When you look at the limitations of the DPF's the latent potential problems contained therein, the cost and inconvienience of potential trips with no other purpose than to clean out the DPF, future maintenance costs of the high pressure fuel system, expensive Pzizo injectors, general extra maintenance for diesel's over petrol and extra up-front costs of diesel vehicles...how much do you really save with a diesel vehicle over the long run....food for thought. My advice learned from very harsh experience, Take a very healthy dose of cynacism and objectivity along when looking at diesel vehicles.

CAMS290 · 22-09-2012, 05:25 PM

DPF's and EGR's on diesels are a band aid slap stick way of meeting emission requirements, SCR is the best way to go, with the only inconvenience being finding a place that sells Ad Blue or the relatively minor extra expense involved.

DPF's are going to be a big headache in the future when these cars get older, and EGR's put unwanted extra heat back into the motor, and contaminates engine oil faster. At least with SCR you can tune the motors dirtier and then just after treat the exhaust.

Peter B - CV8 · 22-09-2012, 05:27 PM

Rather than having to drive at 80KPH for 20 minutes - can't you just give the engine a bit of a work out from time to time. The whole idea is to get the DPF hot enough to burn off the accumulated soot. I would have thought an "italian tune" in 1st & 2nd gears would do the job.
As you say, there are a lot of people out there who have no idea of the DPF conditions & might have second thoughts about buying this type of vehicle if the salesperson did explain what was needed.

**Elks** · 22-09-2012, 07:56 PM

A DPF or SCR ( add blue) are required to meet euro 5 emissions. Cars are e4. Heavy trucks are e5. A DPF for a heavy truck Cummins ISX or Detroit DD15, Both 15 litre heavy truck engines, is about 4~5k but can be had for about 1500 change over. These are good for 500,000 km. i would guess the passenger car versions would last the life of a car. They require a burn off and need to be at speed to do so to keep external muffler temps under control so your 'Italian tune' won't work.

As fir fuel, Australia switched to low sulphur diesel fuel in 2007 I think which is why we have a flood of high quality euro diesel cars in the last few years.

Few passenger cars run SCR. BlueTec benzes, not Blue Efficiency versions Mazda cx9 not sure what else.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CAMS290

DPF's and EGR's on diesels are a band aid slap stick way of meeting emission requirements, SCR is the best way to go, with the only inconvenience being finding a place that sells Ad Blue or the relatively minor extra expense involved.

DPF's are going to be a big headache in the future when these cars get older, and EGR's put unwanted extra heat back into the motor, and contaminates engine oil faster. At least with SCR you can tune the motors dirtier and then just after treat the exhaust.

EGR was adopted by must manufactures with varying degrees of pain, as most fleets found it was hard to get drivers to add diesel let alone a second substance but all are now moving to SCR based on the level of disaster the EGR ones were.

Euro6 is coming approx 2015 and all trucks will require both a DPF and SCR to meet that level of emission.

This stuff is coming so be careful.

Rodge · 23-09-2012, 12:32 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AdBlue

Merc service manager told me the Adblue thing requires a full flush as well as replenishment at each service and that this was a very expensive additional procedure.

With small direct injection petrol engines becoming more and more efficient, (e.g. the new BMW328 twin-scoll turbo 2.0 petrol buring just 6.3 L/100 km's while still providing strong performance), when you factor in the extra regular service costs associated with a diesel and all the potential deep cycle service / replacement costs, you've got to wonder if Euro 5 and Euro 6 reg's are effectivly the nail in the coffin that ruins diesel's long held efficiency advantage ?

DPF's were widely fitted to Euro diesel's from 2007 onwards to meet Euro3 reg's so if you can find a 2006 diesel vehicle with low km's and no dpf chances are you'll pay around about 30 - 40% of the vehicles original cost and provided its been strictly maintained in accordance to the manufacturers requirements, you've got yourself something that'll probably give you less grief than a new vehicle of the same type, (i.e. a bargain).

smoo · 23-09-2012, 01:30 PM

Elks, our first Western Star with DPF on 1000hr/50k ish km just yesterday was de rating due to faulty '7th' injector and would not burn off. The first of many I'm sure. The Isuzu electronic injectors inject on each exhaust stroke when burning off, which proved reliable, but after full regeneration (20 mins) you could see the oil level had risen on the dipstick from some diesel working it's way past the rings, not a major if serviced at the recommended 15000km but will cause big problems for companies who stretch service intervals. I'm sure it will be worse with lazy car owners.

outback_ute · 24-09-2012, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rodge

With small direct injection petrol engines becoming more and more efficient, (e.g. the new BMW328 twin-scoll turbo 2.0 petrol buring just 6.3 L/100 km's while still providing strong performance), when you factor in the extra regular service costs associated with a diesel and all the potential deep cycle service / replacement costs, you've got to wonder if Euro 5 and Euro 6 reg's are effectivly the nail in the coffin that ruins diesel's long held efficiency advantage ?

Many manufacturers are having problems with carbon deposits on intake valves with DI engines, so that is not an automatic solution. Normally the spray of petrol onto the back of the valve would prevent the deposits occurring.

Franco Cozzo · 24-09-2012, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outback_ute

Many manufacturers are having problems with carbon deposits on intake valves with DI engines, so that is not an automatic solution. Normally the spray of petrol onto the back of the valve would prevent the deposits occurring.

Subaru has their own product to combat this called "Upper Engine Cleaner", you spray half the can into a vacuum hose on the inlet manifold, start it up and it chugs and churns out massive amounts of white smoke from the exhaust, keep the revs up and spray the rest of the can in the hose and it cleans up the inlet manifold and carbon build up elsewhere.

Magic stuff